Thank you and well done. So i am looking forward for the final versions .
In any case the PC / MAC version is already fine - thanks a lot.
73 s Bruno
Hi Andrew
I remember such design discussions from the office: once the content is more or less agreed, they can discuss any possible details of the design/displays for hours, no: for days. Maybe this is due to a missing corporate design directive for the SOTA websites. I donāt think that you (and we, hi) have that time for such discussions, although it might be interesting.
Beside the white space, the topic of various displays has been touched. I donāt think that one single display resp. style sheet can cope with all sorts of displays - from a smartphone to a 26" screen.
I had seen an interesting solution on the www.hb9sota.ch homepage where they display the activity of Swiss activators. That home page shows even a varying number of columns depending e.g. on a smartphone in the portrait mode, a smartphone in the landscape mode or a larger display of a desktop computer. Those displaying the database on a smartphone are probably happy to see there only the most important data in the portrait mode and donāt need there the split up of regular and bonus points. Etc.
Vy 73 de Markus, HB9DIZ
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. . . but nevertheless: a good look is key nowadays! Itās not only a table but a feeling nowadays, even in SOTA, hi.
I suggest to collect all GUI related inputs in a bag and to sort that out with a pragmatic amateur radio SOTA web typography fellow in a clean-up procedure when all technical changes are done and agreed.
Thanks for all your work for the community, Andrew.
Vy 73 de Markus, HB9DIZ
Iāve never seen those words used together before 
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. . . yep, I must admit that I had the big number of non-pragmatics in mind when writing this! 
All pages have now been updated.
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Thanks Andrew - it looks great. Appreciate your work. 
Hi Andrew
Thanks for the various considerations and the improved series, great work! Thanks for reducing the vertical white space along the versions.
What I still donāt really understand/perceive from a perspective of readability are the centered columns. Iād consider at least for the āSummitā column to align it left. This has the advantage that the summits codes are below each other what makes it easier to scan through oneās summits. The same actually for the frequency on the Log page, here to the right, if really all frequency values end on the string āMHzā.
Comparing centered and left alignment:
Thanks again and vy 73 de Markus, HB9DIZ
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So if I activate 2 summits in one UTC day, and have a s2s on each with an activator who doesnāt change summits, I get s2s chaser points both times? This seems to conflict with the chaser rules where you only get points once per UTC day.
Yes, because the S2S points are per-summit-pair-per-day, effectively. The new summit you are on forms a new summit-pair, so you get the points. You can see this on my log for 23 Sep 2016, for example.
This is news to me.
News to me too. But I did find some places in my s2s log where it happened.
Itās been like this since the start. The design aim was to make the chase part of S2S the same as chasing but it didnāt quite work out like that. 
But the S2S rules/scoring seem to work well.
I have a simple rule for SOTA, work everyone and log everything and let the DB figure it out!
Now there are a few SOTA regulars who actively refuse to have a QSO which other SOTA participants. Thereās nothing in amateur radio rules that says you must work anyone who replies, but Iām thinking that deliberately ignoring other SOTA participants everytime is well outside the spirit of SOTA. Weāre all in this together and such discrimination is wrong.
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As for me I have an even simpler rule for SOTA: Work everyone - thatās enough!
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I find this totally unacceptable and Iād warn any individuals acting like that giving them a short lead time to correct such behaviour and demonstrate it by audio recording, being otherwise excluded off the programme database for sometime until prove of corrected behaviour be received.
73,
Guru
I disagree, Guru. Donāt get me wrong, I strongly dislike such behaviour, but there is nothing in the rules to make it illegal, nor should there be. If you dislike someone you should not be forced to talk to them.
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I understand your point and I nearly agree, but exchanging a signal report and writing the QSO down on the log is not much of ātalkingā.
If Iām a chaser and someone I donāt like is activating, I will simply not chase him, but if Iām activating and someone I donāt like talking with comes and calls me, Iād just give him signal report and thatās it, but having him calling for the points and ignoring him as he wasnāt there calling is something fully out of my āmodus operandiā, not just on the bands, but in life.
Well, my way of seeing things and acting in life is not necessarily shared by everyone in this World and I canāt do other than reluctantly accept itā¦
73,
Guru
I agree with Guru that it is unacceptable, but also agree with Brian that rules shouldnāt be in place that penalise such behaviour.
Andy is right - it is completely contrary to the spirit of SOTA to single out one or two other participants and continually refuse to work them when you are activating for SOTA. However, this is something that happens and it is better to ignore it than try and legislate for it.
Fortunately for me, I am active in the SWL section of the programme, so while I would always try first for the S2S (as that is what I would prefer), if the other station refuses to work me, I just claim the SWL points instead
All,
This is an interesting thread. Iāve made a lot of S2S contacts - here are a few points that Iāve observed:
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S2S contacts often require more patience than regular SOTA contacts - patience from BOTH operators. It takes two to tango, and often itās a tough game, with disappointments.
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The better activators mostly like getting S2S contacts, and they complete them efficiently. They readily accept an āS2Sā invitation, and many of them seek out other activators to chase.
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I get about the same number of S2S contacts by initiating them as by receiving them. Running a regular activation with often yield several S2S contacts without any special effort.
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You can get more S2S contacts as you go deeper into SOTA - reasons for this: other activators learn that you like it, you allow time for it, you listen a lot more, and you plan activations to do S2S specifically. You may choose to follow the spots on a smartphone, or get other assistance.
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S2S contacts bring out the SOTA spirit in us; the more elusive these contacts are, the more fun they are to complete. This spirit is shared by many other S2S activators.
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On a quiet summit itās possible to make numerous contacts that would not happen as a chaser at home. Mostly this is because of lower RF noise, but also the more ideal antenna location and good take-off angle improves station performance.
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If you can hear them, you have a fair chance of working them, even with 5 or 10 watts.
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S2S is really a game within the SOTA game. A cycle of challenge and accomplishment is built into it, the rules are very well done, and the database handles the tricky details well. Many S2S contacts are unlikely, but when they do happen, thereās a rush of amazement that is addictive. The effect is like catching a big fish, winning a gamble, or seeing an unusual animal or bird. SOTA has some of this feedback already, but S2S is more incredible!
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Here in Colorado, S2S contacts occur over many paths, as well as on many bands and modes. Direct line-of-sight contacts are often possible over more than 100 miles on HF, VHF, and UHF. Much longer contacts occur because of diffraction, reflection off high peaks, airplanes, and other kinds of scatter.
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Being near the center of North America allows HF propagation to surrounding areas by using various bands that provide ionospheric propagation over a great range of distances, at different times of day, etc. Activators in other regions are often accessible via HF, if they cooperate.
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SOTA activations can be challenging enough at high altitude, but S2S often requires more time on a summit. Higher summits are better for non-ionospheric contacts, and certain summits offer other features that may lead to success - or not.
Problems occur with activators who are new to SOTA, new to CW, or both. These operators are already challenged by working a pile of chasers, and sometimes an S2S call is just ātoo muchā. Some activators donāt respond, perhaps because they donāt know what S2S means, or because they are not prepared to respond. Many operators fail to send their call or their SOTA ref. Iāve had my share of awkward S2S attempts.
This is where Iām leading:
I believe it would be helpful if some general instructions on SOTA operating were easily available to new SOTA operators. These might cover HF, VHF, CW, and phone - activating and chasing. The existing system is somewhat difficult to get started in. Thereās lots of information, but itās hard to navigate. I was deterred almost a year before I went out and activated, even though I already knew how to operate portable.
In particular, basic information on S2S operating should be included. This thread has more information than anything Iāve seen so far.
New operators should be made aware that there is a separate log for S2S contacts. Even if the new database supports submitting one CSV file, many of us donāt do our SOTA logs that way, including me. It would be nice if I just had to type one activator log into the SOTA database, and the S2S data would go into the S2S and Chaser databases - or is this possible now? Or is it only done that way with a correctly formatted CSV file? If so, Iād better learn how to do that. Iām definitely better at making S2S contacts than logging them - they take a long time to log.
Recently I discovered that some of the most accomplished SOTA activators are not always logging their S2S contacts. Some of them have left thousands of points out of their logs. I make S2S contacts with these great operators, some with incredible listening and CW skills, yet they donāt log contacts except in their activator logs! Why? Because they never got instruction early on, or maybe because they donāt have time, or whatever. ??
Last but not least, the connection of S2S contacts to SOTA Complete logs should be explained. I get many of my SOTA Completes from S2S contacts made here in Colorado. Itās much easier to contact local peaks from other summits, than from home down near the Plains, where most of us live.
73
George
KX0R
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