Summit To Summit rules

Rules
61

I agree with all of that. There is a logging improvement in beta, but I forgot about that earlier this week when I added a 23 cm s2s using the old method. I expected the first entry to take care of both the chaser and s2s logging, with a second entry to complete the activator log - - just like all the other 1200 times I logged s2s contacts. No such luck. The s2s went in, but neither of the other two. Could be frustrating for a newbie.

One thing you didn’t mention, Corey. It has become traditional for both s2s stations to send their reference numbers, which takes an agonizingly long time on CW, with a pile of folks waiting for their turn. With current tech, I think it is rare that the two stations don’t already know both references. I don’t send it unless asked, although I do remember an occasion when I later emailed a guy when I wasn’t sure he knew what just happened.

As an aside, congratulations to the Swiss, who have turned s2s into a national pastime.

Elliott, K6EL

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62

One thing I can add is that on phone it is common to hear a chaser give the activator a report and then tell him he has a summit to summit station calling him. The activator then typically asks everyone to stand by and calls for the summit to summit station, meanwhile the chasers usually respect the S2S contact and are silent.

If you mean by seeing the Spots, remember that the spots are sometimes wrong, we often get corrections on the reflector.

63

The new database offers the option to upload one V2 formatted CSV file and have both the activator and chaser data tables populated by that single upload. I highly recommend looking into the various methods available for producing CSV files for uploading SOTA contacts. It simplifies the process, makes it far more efficient to correct errors and allow for uploading the data into a station log if the operator uses one.
73 Andrew VK1DA/VK2UH

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64

Nice to hear from you, Elliott.
It’s been a long time since our last s2s QSO (2013 during the 12m challenge).

In the meantime, the SOTA community has multiplied and in our hemisphere, fortunately, most of the s2s QSOs in cw (85% or more?) take place at around 25 wpm. This results IMHO in no significant waiting time (for overzealous colleagues …).
And, of course, the cw newbies should be able to make their first experiences at a slower speed - because the entire SOTA (CW) community can benefit from this later.

Re “national pastime”: Well said - perhaps this is too strong a word, we are just a small minority, hi.

73, Heinz HB9BCB

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65

Elliott,

Thanks for your mentioning the summit ref - yes, that’s often the majority of the time spent for a CW S2S contact. I’m on the other side of the technology here. I rarely use a phone or see the spots when I’m activating and doing S2S. I really need the other operator to send me his summit ref. Sometimes I copy the calls and summits in the Alerts before I leave the house in the morning, but I still need confirmation of the ref. Often spots are wrong - particularly RBNHole spots when the operator is off his time(s), or plans change. I really need the operator’s actual ref, and I always send mine twice.

Unfortunately, what really happens with some activators:

  1. They don’t send the summit ref
  2. They try to send it but botch it - can’t send well or send two different versions, etc.
  3. I ask for the ref, but they send “73” and disappear
  4. They fail to send their call, and I don’t know it yet
  5. I ask for their call, but they send “73” and disappear
  6. Some don’t realize it’s an S2s contact at all, etc.

When signals are barely or intermittently readable, problems with calls and refs are worse. However, the better ops seem to just glide through the whole contact no matter what, and we get our info exchanged with a few repeats, and it’s all done! It’s a combination of better antenna, better radio, and more experience, but the difference between the better S2S ops and some others is like day and night. I can burn 10 or 20 minutes trying to S2S an inexperienced CW operator, with OK signals, and still fail - and a short time later work S2S with one of the better ops in NC, GA, VA, etc. from here in CO, on 40M CW, at noon over the path, in just a minute or two.

Most of “my” chasers know my habits and are VERY cooperative during S2S contacts. Some of them even announce to the pile that an S2S is calling! Only a few try to jump in and dominate - usually a quick AS fixes things. Many of these ops are activators too, so they know about S2S issues. Of course, not everyone can hear what is happening. If a chaser doesn’t get what’s happening, it can be ugly…

Many S2S contacts are unique and somewhat tricky, so that adds to the moment and often ends up being fun. Sometimes multiple S2S stations call, and that can be really fun to sort out!

Yes, the Swiss are the masters! Their logs are worth a look - what’s possible! So many hours on so many summits - so different from a quick activation!

S2S Logging:

I just verified that directly logging an S2S contact puts the contact in both the S2S Log AND the Chaser Log, but not the Activator Log.

This is true for both the old database and the new database sites.

Some instructions on operating, logging, and making corrections might be helpful to people getting started. These could be included in a drop-down menu on a couple of the SOTA sites, etc.

73

Carey/George
KX0R

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66

I agree with KX0R that all activators should send their summit reference during an S2S contact…along with the signal report. Technology and the internet is great but I prefer getting that info directly from the activator real-time.

73, Brad
WA6MM

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67

An S2S contact is a special kind of chase. So when you log an S2S both the pure char and S2S entries are created for you. The system is clever enough to know how to score your chase log when there maybe dupe contacts in it from chase and S2S entries. It doesn’t create an activation log entry because it’s not an activation QSO. It’s also why you cannot delete a chase QSO that is part of an S2S fr the chase log page.

You can get both done at once now when you use CSV log uploads on the new database. Andrew @vk3arr had the space and freedom when he did the new database to make the upload log activation, chase and S2S at the same time with just one upload.

Andy PA/M0FMF
Sat in Schiphol waiting for a flight home

68

I’m down at the less-experienced end of the CW activating scale. I’m sure I’ve fallen for #2 and #6 on occasions, and I’ve probably been on the receiving end of the other 4 (and certainly #4 and #5 with ordinary chasers). The only way I’ll get better is by more practice, and while chasing from home can provide some of that, only activationg will provide the sharp-end experience.

Of course, I am much less likely to miss a S2S caller if they’re using /P in their callsign…

Where possible I try to use modern tech to help, and when it’s working it is very useful for confirming details, but I’ve had intermittent or no mobile coverage on three of the last five summits I’ve activated…

69

I’m with you Geo. For me personally, I think in the true spirit of the SOTA “sport” the S2S Ref# should be exchanged every time for a few reasons.

  1. To show you ACTUALLY made the S2S contact.
  2. To make sure what shows up on the internet is correct.
  3. If I have cell service, I like to verify what I see on the Sota Spotter App.
  4. Sometimes on the summit there is ZERO cell phone coverage and must rely on the Reverse Beacon Network to be spotted or have a random chaser find me and send a spot for me. In this case, when I hear someone xmit S2S it is most imperative to exchange the full info. Callsign, RST AND summit Ref.

I remember in the not too distant past having an S2S with you Geo KX0R when signals were extremely weak and QSB was bad also. It took several repeats of your call before I knew it was you and then several repeats of the Ref #. I bit of work but well worth it to me.

As of late I have learned to use the APRS 2 SOTA with the handheld but it is still a bit confusing and labor intensive for my fumble fingers…but I’m learning. It has saved me at least once because I forgot to place an ALERT on sotawatch before leaving home.

73’s and GL es Gud WX on the summit.
Tim - K5DEZ

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70

I’ll throw out one more reason to send your S2S references. During the last W7A 10-point madness event I went up a local summit here in W0C strictly to work all the stations S2S. I had already activated this peak many times this year so I didn’t post an alert or spot myself. I was “chasing” S2S contacts and not calling CQ. If I didn’t send my summit ref nobody would know what peak I was on.

73, Brad
WA6MM

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71

And the other reason is the recommendations in rule 3.7.1.8. Perhaps the MT should upgrade that from a recommendation to a requirement!:grinning:

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72

Problem with it being a requirement is it adds a time overhead to every contact including the ones where both parties know the other summit ref already.

The urgent need to log the reference at the time of the contact is not a valid one. The urgency is derived from a contesting scenario that does not apply to sota. The sota contact is still valid if the reference is added later. Indeed if that was not valid, all those summit correction notices we see here would become contact deletion messages.

Hence i do not favour making summit references a required part of each contact.
73 Andrew VK1DA/VK2UH

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73

But how much later? Look at it from the POV of a chaser. A chaser would have to keep checking the activators log until the log is updated. Only then will the chaser know for sure what summit he has worked and only then can he fill in his own log, because spots are not necessarily accurate, and quite a few phone activations go unspotted. You mention a contest scenario, but not taking the few seconds of extra time to send a reference is itself a contest attitude.

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74

IMHO that hits the nail right on the head.

The exchange of the summit reference is precisely what makes a s2s so special.

Thanks for reading.

Edit 02/11/2019
Sorry Andrew@VK1DA, your callsign above is now correct.
73 tks, Heinz HB9BCB

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75

None of the above.

A bit of self-honesty is all that is required. Do I definitely know the summit of the other station? (Reasons could be: heard it announced, saw spot on SW and satisfied it is absolutely correct etc). If I do, I have no real need to have the activator reannounce it for my own obsessiveness.

If I don’t know, or am unsure, I ask the other activator for the reference.

It’s actually not complicated, and certainly doesn’t demand a review of the rules!

76

Tom,
I agree. It is only in a few cases where the summit is not already known. The guidelines suggest sending the summit code at reasonable intervals.

If you heard the activator sending the summit code to every chaser, by the time you make a contact you know it already very well. And when conditions are poor and you only want your signal report it is frustrating to hear your own callsign, the reference and various 73 messages all sent again without the report.

My reference to the contest scenario is to compare contesting where every aspect of the contact is required to be sent for each contact. This is not the case with SOTA because partly the reference is static, temporarily anyway.

I do understand why it would sometimes be desirable for the activator to send the reference. And perhaps it should be sent more often. I just doubt that it’s worth requiring it to be sent for every contact. I somehow think that would not be obeyed by all activators.

As Tom says, the chaser always has the option to ask REF?

(Heinz, please note that the callsign given for the quote above is incorrect. )

Andrew VK1DA/VK2UH

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