QRO voltage cutoff ? Battery Improvements required...

I have been using a 3S LiPo battery with a 20A BMS to power my Yaesu FT-857. These packs have a nominal voltage of 11.1V and charge up to 12.6V. The Yeasu 857 is rated to 13.8V ±15%.

If i draw too much power around 80W on HF i can have the radio cutout. I believe this is because I hit a transitory low voltage with the BMS hitting a cut-off (Unlikely?) or the radio hit its cut-off (more likely). I do not have this issue on a 13.7V bench supply.

This is for mobile operating, so I lug the battery(s) up a peak and the are not too large (5/6aH works for me)…

Im after suggestions on improving the situation or learning what battery set-up you use ? I am thinking:

  • try 4s Lipo ? but the max voltage is 16.8V and the Yeasu is rated to 13.8V ±15% == 15.8V
  • Improve internal cabling on battery or try a beefier BMS. Doubt this will sort it…
  • Switch to lifepo4. But thats more $$$, my LiPo cells are free thanks to wombling
  • Anything else ?

One or two Silicon power diodes in the cable with a 4S LiPO. For Silicon power diodes the Vf will be around 0.9V. Use the diodes to reduce the voltage to the radio until the battery voltage reduces then switch them out, first just one, then the other.

The diodes will get warm. 80W is probably 20A peaks. 0.9 * 20 = 18W

So a Vishay PB3006 bridge is a 600V PIV 30A jobby that costs £2.70+ vat
Vf = 0.98V
C/W = 20C/W for no heatsink.
0.98*20 = 19.6W
So you’ll need a heatsink to dissipate the heat.

No RF noise unlike using a buck converter.

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You can use an inline 20 amp bridge rectifier mounted on a heat sink to drop the 4S Lipo voltage until such time as the Lipo battery output voltage is at 15v. Then remove the bridge rectifier and continue until the Lipo capacity is exhausted.

Andrew VK1AD

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Hi Tim,

Try to find on the web or on reflector one article :
Voltage Reducer for Lithium-ionPolymer Four-Cell Batteries by Phil Salas, AD5X
published by QST® Reprinted with permission from April 2015 QST

73, Éric F5JKK

Edit : @ON7DQ had a write also to the same thing on the reflector

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A “12v” LiFePO4?

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HI Andrew,
I like this solution, very similar to @MM0FMF suggestion of the voltage drop over the fwd bias of diodes. I assume it needs to look like this:

Thanks
Tim

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Turn the power down as the voltage gets lower.

You might need better batteries for this. I can run my '891 from 3S3P 18650B’s , but not at full power. (more like 30W ssb)
I expect that my 10Ah of good panasonics has lower dynamic R than 5Ah of scabbed vape batteries.

If the '857 is anything like the '817, it doesn’t reset until the voltage is really low i.e your transmission will be badly clipped at that point because of the battery sagging on peaks.

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Hi Tim, yes however add an appropriate fast blow fuse between the battery and the bridge rectifier. I used 30 amp Anderson powerpole connectors to joint the components.

I used this arrangement in 2013 - 2015 when 4S Lipo batteries dominated the market. At the time high capacity LifePO4 was just entering the market. Of course today LifePO4 is known as a safer chemistry and widely available.

I will send a photo of my combined bridge rectifier & heatsink tomorrow.

Andrew VK1AD

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There’s a very simple, zero cost, almost zero effort solution. Just run lower power. The difference between 50W and 100W is not much - less than an S point. Your battery will last longer too.

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Hi Tim,
My advice is shop around and get a 12.8v 4S LifePO4. As you found a 3S LiPo is fine for an FT817 but not for an FT857 or FT897 at full power.

73 Ed DD5LP.

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Note that, in most cases, only two of the diodes will be passing current in that configuration. That’s because of the slight differences in voltage drip across the diodes: the pair with the lowest drop, even if it is only a few mV, will take most of the current. So just 2 diodes will work as well as a full wave bridge.

However, if the current rating is marginal, then placing a jumper between the two unused terminals will allow the circuit to continue functioning even if one of the diodes blows due to high current. (They typically fail open circuit due to high current, and short circuit due to high voltage breakdown.)

I’m using 6S LiPo’ or 2x 3S LiPo’s and a step-down-converter from Alfatronix (used mainly in trucks) to reduce the voltage from 22V to 13.6V (constant).

or try the “battery booster” MFJ-4416 (if you can find one), reports may be found here:
https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product/7504

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That is the answer.

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Switching buck converters are efficient but generate noise.

Diode based buck converters just waste the extra power.

IMO, there are two simple solutions:

  1. Use a 4s LiFePO4 pack and be done with it. A 12 Ah pack lasts 4-6 hrs of operating with my FT-857 depending on duty cycle and mode.

  2. Use a 4s Li pack, but use a smart charger and only charge to about 80% capacity (4.0 V per cell). Energy density is plenty good for that to be a viable option. Mark, KD7DTS, runs an FT-857 for short SOTA activations using 100w with a 4s2p 18650 pack.

Adam
K6ARK

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Or even lower. Considering the discharge curve of a liion, 3.8v and the battery is ~75% full.

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When I used an FT-857 on the hills, I put a 10A NIMH in series with my 4AH 3S LiPOs. I made up several packs with the NIMHs piggy backed on the LiPOs. Eventually I changed over to a linear amplifier for the FT-817 for better efficiency. The 857 has a hefty receive current drain.

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The bridge rectifier on a heatsink is the cheapest quick fix especially if like me you have been Magpie-ing away electronics scrap since you were a child :wink: Yes it’s wasteful but has the advantage of being cheap and even if you buy new, all the bits are easily available. If you only use your high power radio occasionally it’s the best fix until you do invest in 4S LiFePO batteries.

Switching converters have the worry of RF noise. I bought 3 identical buck-boost converters from AliExp for my 13cm transverter to get it 13.8V from an 11.1V LiPO. I got 3, one for me, one for Jack GM4COX and one for Barry GM4TOE. Mine and Barry’s are RF silent and Jack’s fills the spectrum with noise. Yet they are meant to be the same, go figure. Just because someone bought one and it’s quiet isn’t a guarantee your’s will be!

Partial charging is a solution but one day you’ll fully charge the 4S LiPO and may do the radio some damage. It’s a grenade with the pin partially pulled!

And the super cheapest solution is to run less power on the 3S batteries. As stated 50W SSB to 80W SSB is barely detectable. And costs you nothing. I believe the vernacular for this mode of operation is “pushing less whiskies”; an expresission that is out of place in ham radio and also grammatically incorrect :rofl:

Problems and solutions, never black and white but shades of grey. Probably not fifty of them though.

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I don’t want to tempt anyone to do this. But I have been using FT-891 and TS-480 with 4s LiPo with up to 16.8 V for years without any problems.

73, Peter - HB9PJT

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I’m on the side saying “run less power”, as I believe you won’t notice anything changing in your log if you run half or even a quarter of the 100w your rig can produce. Half the power = 3db less signal, quarter is 6 db less, one tenth of the power is a “massive” 10 db reduction. Not noticeable to most listeners when qsb causes 30 db fluctuations already.

I still run 10-15w from my kX3 and consistently get good reports. I have an amplifier that boosts it to 100w but the signal reports don’t change much at all, in particular the number of contacts made does not change. So clearly it is not necessary to run so much power. I have used the amplifier a handful of times out of the 667 summit activations made. I also used a 30-40w amplifier on several activations. 40w is a gain of 8, or 9db over the 5w from an ft817.

Cutting back to a lighter radio capable of less power will allow you to use lighter batteries too. Everything gets better - you can walk further with a lighter pack. And smaller batteries recharge quicker.

There are some exceptions - the 10m contest in December increased the noise on the band and 100w from my amp or from the ic706 certainly made more contacts possible than with 12w from the kX3. But in regular SOTA activations, 10-12-15w is sufficient to fill your log, and you only need 4 contacts (on each mode if you use more than one and want to qualify summits on each mode). It is nice to have a log of 60 or more contacts but the first 4 got you the points.

Note also that using a 100w capable radio at 10w output is less efficient than using a 10w radio, due to the bias current required for the 100w level being a lot more than required for a lower rated amplifier. Eg. 2-3 amps while you have the PTT button down, against half an amp for a 10w amplifier. Might not seem much but it adds up. And the higher power radios have more standing current for displays, gadgets you don’t need to make 4 contacts. 2 amps receive current for the 706 vs. 200 mA for the kX3 and the ic703. Again, it adds up, cutting down battery life more quickly.

On that score a separate amplifier is more efficient from a “current drawn” perspective than a 100w radio you only need the higher power for in some contacts. A low current radio can drive the amplifier to higher power, and the net efficiency is better.

Having said that, I have used Andrew VK1AD’s rigs that were running about 30w output and they certainly work well. It gives you a little confidence that you can complete a marginal contact just by increasing the power on those occasions when you need to. I usually use them on cw only, so rarely have trouble with signal levels.

My 2c worth of commentary.

73 Andrew VK1DA/VK2DA

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