Continuing the discussion from Phantom chasers chasing spots (Part 1) - #103 by G4TGJ.
Previous discussions:
Interesting thread which - as most reflector posts do - moved into different territories.
I do this as a past-time, a hobby combining walking with radio.
Participation is free; no recurring subscription fees and whilst no competition, there are many prizes to be won.
(Feeling of accomplishment after a challenging ascent/descent, mental well-being, experiencing breath-taking vistas, observing nature, wild-life, new places, etc).
Phantom Chasers
Iâve had the odd phantom chaser; tell-tale signs of too little/large gaps between overs and/or on-air report not being relayed back as confirmation, but instead a general âthanks for the reportâ.
Surely, others who can hear both sides of the QSO know as well whatâs going on.
If I make contact with an activator and due to band conditions, I am not 100% sure whether the QSO was valid, I take a screenshot of the âlog QSOâ info box but cancel the action and check the activatorâs log some time later. If I am in, I log it, if not, I delete the screenshot.
But as others have said, I believe the overwhelming majority of us play nicely.
And for those that do not, I trust the MT will take whatever action they deem necessary in case of repeat offenders. No impact on my enjoyment whether someones make MG under suspicious circumstances or racks up record chaser QSOs; thatâs on them.
Like most, I take pictures along the way when activating, and almost always of my battered backpack and purple sit mat on the summit. I also take a screenshot of the SOTA Goat compass screen to show I am in the AZ. Whilst this is mainly for my own benefit, I would have no issues sharing this from time to time, if asked. But having to submit evidence pictures of an activation as standard or having chaser entries depend only on activator logs just to stop a very small minority would not be the right approach.
Can you imagine the number of emails being received when the log has not been uploaded within the hour; or someone wanting to be /M iso /P, etc.
Not being dependent on one side uploading a log or not, is one of the great benefits of SOTA compared to other schemes.
Alerting
The only purpose for me to alert is to make people aware what time I may be approximately where. I do not use it to âclaimâ a summit, nor as a way for others to track my whereabouts.
I used to alert consistently, esp. placing summit references on the 1st alert during a multi-summit day, then updating the alert when starting the ascent. However, thatâs not always possible especially in mountainous area with limited cell coverage.
I once was greeted on air - after an especially arduous ascent with: âweâve been waiting for youâ⌠Since then, I alert much less.
Some never alert. Itâs not compulsory and it never should be.
Some alerts can be frustrating though, when an activator alerts for multiple bands, but the spot for that alerted band you may be able to reach the activator on never comes⌠In most cases likely caused by time constraints or weather; been there; I will then update the alert to make people ware. But some tend to over promise and under deliver regularly. Better the other way around I guess.
Meeting activators on a summit
I have met several activators on a summit, mostly unexpectedly.
Always great to catch up and in most cases, it works out just fine even sharing a mic for an impromptu joint activation in case space is limited.
Whilst there may well be those recording activations and/or chases that never were, the SOTA scheme has stood the test of time and letâs hope it will continue unchanged for many more years to come.
13 Likes
Thats my opinion too. Against those who intentionally cheat it is just an arms race that can not be won.
To the sloppy users who did not carefully read the rules it can be a reminder.
For the honest and careful poeple it can be annoying. Eg I do not own a gps device. And there is not much relevant information in photos of thick fog or dense forest.
73, Johannes
2 Likes
The GPS proof would only be valid if it was possible to send a real time position, like Garmin inreach does. But normal gps on phones or dedicated devices do not have this feature, yet.
Taking a screenshot of a normal gps is really not cheatproof since you can easily manipulate or Photoshop, timestamps and positions.
2 Likes
The obvious amateur radio solution would be APRS position tracking, except that APRS reception coverage can be patchy to non-existant, and not everyone carries an APRS-capable tracker, andâŚ
Iâve probably photographed fewer of my activation stations than not, either because of the weather, or time pressure, or that the location didnât seem worth photographing, or just absent mindedness.
I have a few GPS tracks, but my GPSr is a little ancient these days, and getting tracks out of it is trickier than it used to be.
âŚbut generally the trust model works best.
5 Likes
You are 100% correct⌠but if I had no other options for comms during an emergency Iâd happily risk prosecution.
Depending on where I am going I sometimes carry a VHF set capable of use on the 2m FM band as well as Channel 16 and Channel 62a.
To be clear, this is âlast resortâ use.
Itâs not that long ago that PLBs were illegal to use on land in the UK. Didnât stop people using them in an emergency and no one was ever prosecuted.
Frivolous or mischievous use would of course be a very different matter.
6 Likes
30 seconds on play store will give anyone all they need to spoof a gps location in Android. And as said above photos of a foggy summit / park looks like photos of anywhere. Especially if noone else has been there. So the âevidenceâ is so easy to fake as to be laughable. Tracklogs are a bit harder to convincingly fake, but not impossible - especially if you accept x,y only (no elevation or time) trackpoints - which youâd have to to support the full range of devices.
Proof that poses no challenge to a dedicated cheat, but becomes a real put-off to a genuine participant.
3 Likes
If your phone has a GPS, you can log the coordinates in the EXIF-data if your settings allow that, with a probable fault margin. That could be used as a reference picture if someone questions your activation.
That ist not the point. I do not have gps, I do not need gps and I do not need a proof or alibi.
The point is, that everbody who wants to cheat, can manipulate the exif data.
73, Johannes
1 Like
The only foolproof solution is to have the relevant Region Manager accompany every activator to summits in his region. To allow for multiple activations on a given day, the RM will swear in deputies (wearing a shiny badge as ID) to share the role. Problem solved!
6 Likes
Itâs much simpler than most of you give credit to.
Most activation cheats donât climb enough mountains to be able to convince people who do climb mountains that the activation is genuine. After a while cheating activators stand out to other activators. Itâs often harder to be a convincing cheat that just doing the activation properly!
When we have required photographic proof, the photos provided have to show unequivocally the activator to be at the summit. If you have a photo of a misty summit with no salient features visible then we will reject it and your activation will not count.
To paraphrase
you can convince some people all of the time that you are not cheating
you can convince all people some of the time that you are not cheating
but you cannot convince all of the people all of the time that you are not cheating.
And worse, a dirty reputation sticks. Once there has been doubt someone has been up to no good, it is impossible to clear your reputation completely. There will always be some lingering doubt in someoneâs mind. So it is easier to just activate or chase completely within the rules. Sure you may get fewer points by always being honest but you will have the respect of your peers which is priceless.
21 Likes
Talking about Photoâs I would think at least 80% of my activations, I had my own personal sherpa (Elaine) carrying any food and water , she was also my personal photographer and most importantly of all pushed me on when I thought I wasnât go to make it.
On the ones where I was on my own, I used a timer on my digital camera and jumped in to the shot. I did this more for lasting memories of my Activities than proof I was there.
I never pretended to be a Mountain climber or even a Hill walker, most summits for me were a big effort. I also never pretended that I would ever achieve MG because of this.
my final waffle on this matter 
Tony
4 Likes
One past activator had a habit of writing his callsign on a rock in the summit cairn to say âI was here!â We do not recommend this way of proving presence but it works!
1 Like
Indeed! I think the majority of us try to be realistic about which bands we can activate on, but circumstances on the summit dictate otherwise. My last two activations are a case in point when I failed to get onto 40m due to getting the HF antenna tangled and then later running out of time. However, we need to bear in mind that nothing is guaranteed. If it were how boring it would all become.
4 Likes
And isnât that one of the things that makes amateur radio such a great and fascinating hobby? If everything was guaranteed, then we wouldnât have those YESSS!!! moments!
6 Likes
Perhaps MT could build a team of robotic gnomes to accompany us, and a means of tracking them all in real timeâŚit could be the basis of a good film tooâŚ
9 Likes
Haha Adrian, some one has been watching Christmas TV recently 
3 Likes
Since the accompanying RM would not be able to activate unless also similarly accompanied and so on, it should be stipulated that every activation must be accompanied by every member of the sota management team of which one must miss out on activating unless they crossverify each other.
While they are there, they can help carry my bags 
Ian
3 Likes
They could tidy the paths on the way up and do a bit of topiary too. Just make sure the evil setting is disabled.
6 Likes
Could we have the robotic gnomes carry our gear? Seems a waste that theyâre going to the summit anyway. Maybe the gnomes could work FT8 to save us the effort of activating. In fact, why not just send the gnomes out to activate for us?
I have a phone full of summit selfies, just in case. Itâs become a habit to take a pic to record my presence. I think that if youâre getting to the point of falsifying EXIF data and photoshopping photos, then SOTA is not for you.
Longridge Fell last month
6 Likes