In a different thread, Matt, W4GO, raises the issue of chasers chasing spots to claim Challenge points. I have recently noticed one or two offenders who routinely chase spots when they are obviously unable to hear the activator. Repeatedly calling on top of the activator and being out of sync with the rest of the pile raises some questions…but all doubt was removed when the chaser proceeded to conduct an entire exchange scenario after the activator had changed bands. Hihi!!
Unfortunately, that is the age we live in.
Stay well & 73!
Mike, WB2FUV
Mike this routinely happens when some chasers chase parks. There is one chaser in particular that will have “phantom” qso’s after calling on top of others. By the way, don’t feel bad about calling me “Len” it happens all of the time. My good friend, Len, K6LEN and I get a kick out of it.
73, and please stay safe out there. de W6LEN / Jess
Would be interesting if the challenge results and honor rolls for chasers were amended to include a column showing each chaser’s NIL (not in log) rate.
I do wonder if changing the awards scheme so as to base chasers’ honor roll scores, challenge scores, badges, etc. not on the chasers’ logs, but on the activators’ logs, would have an (eventual) effect of discouraging the practice of making and logging phantom/deaf QSOs.
If this had the side effect that chasers lost credit for the surely tiny fraction of activations not uploaded, no big deal IMO.
That puts all the responsibility on the activator. POTA works that way, and it’s one of the reasons I very seldom hunt parks for POTA’s sake (and have never deliberately activated one). SOTA chasing is an activity for me, while POTA hunting is just something that happens in passing.
I’d be interested to know how big a fraction that really is. I’ve done a few joint SOTA activations where I was the only one to upload a log to the SOTA database.
I think there would be some unintended consequences of going the route of POTA when it comes to chasers. One of the things I appreciate about SOTA is that the chasers are more persistent in their attempts to work you. In POTA, if you don’t work the chaser in the first two attempts, they are gone never to return. In SOTA, I truly believe it is the “scoreboard effect” and the small victory of logging the chase yourself that gives “our” folks a little more motivation to try harder. You get an immediate reward.
That said, the “immediate reward” is what pushes some ops to cheat.
I agree with your observation Mike. When chasing a station where propagation just isn’t providing adequate reception of the activator, I just patiently wait for improvement in the path or hope they move to a band with more favorable propagation to my location. Otherwise, it is far too easy to walk over the activator and other chasers.
This is the problem. I’ve heard stations “working” me while I am actually working another chaser. They just can’t hear me well enough to know whether or not I have returned to them. They just assume I have and complete the QSO. Not only does this cause phantom chases to be logged but also causes massive QRM which is especially annoying when you are trying to work a weak S2S station.
Yes - it’s always really exciting to read in the “who chased me” section who has worked with me… there were so many great QSOs that I know nothing about!
I had one guy persistently calling me as I was actually chasing another station last week. Every time I called the activator, this chaser would call me! It really is a case of listening and understanding who is doing what.
I’ve had some ‘interesting’ results when trying the ‘show who chased me’ button.
Generally, the more psychologically stress-inducing an activity is, the less I enjoy it. That’s a key reason I like SOTA, just sort-of tag along with POTA (hunting only), leave DXCC to accumulate or not, and keep IOTA, WWFF (etc.) and contests at least a barge-pole away.
Not quite. The current system for chaser credit puts responsibility on the chaser to be honest and upright in their logging and operating practices. A responsibility which many are clearly failing.
The honor system becomes untenable when the collective honor falls below a certain threshold. I would argue we are there, or nearly so. Look at the regular outcry here from activators who are frustrated with chaser conduct.
Were the change made to credit chaser QSOs by activator logs, an activator could refuse to work a discourteous or dishonest chaser and thereby justly deny him the credit for the QSO.
As things stand now, the activator has no such leverage over the inconsiderate chaser, with the outcome that we see being raised in this thread.
Yes, I’m aware of some not-uploaded activations too, but it seems pretty uncommon in my experience. I randomly check the logs of roughly 5% of the activations I work, and I find the upload rate is extremely good, as is activators’ rate of correctly logging their QSO with me.
Anyway, I personally wouldn’t care if, say, 5% of activations I chased were not uploaded. I don’t chase for the “glory” of the honor rolls, badges and challenges but to support activators, be a part of the SOTA community, and enjoy the fun of operating. Those things occur whether I’m credited with the QSO or not.
If I were someone who cared strongly about credit for chaser QSOs, I would soon figure out which activators are unreliable about uploading their logs and would probably not bother to chase them as often as the diligent uploaders.
I don’t understand why activators wouldn’t upload QSOs. It’s silly to go through the trouble of carrying a radio up a mountain, setting up an antenna, and making contacts, only to not log them in the end.
From my own experience as an activator, I’ve also encountered a few phantom chasers, but I don’t mind. They can log me if they want, but they’re only fooling themselves.
The database tells us that there are 14,294 all-time chasers. It also tells us that in the last complete year, 2023, 5229 chasers recorded chases. The leading chasers have chased tens of thousands of activators. We know that there are some bad actors amongst the chasers, just as we know that there are some bad actors amongst the activators. Some have been quietly dealt with. In time more will be.
You are correct to say that when the collective honour falls below a threshold then the honour system becomes untenable. The question that remains open is where that threshold should be. How many bad actors have we got? If there are a hundred that were active last year that is two percent, does two percent break the system? Yes or no, it is still a matter of opinion. For you and me the system is broken when we think it is broken, whatever the figures.
Fulminating on the Reflector about Phantom Chasers achieves little other than letting off a little steam. It gets nothing done about the problem. The MT cannot act on clouds of steam, what we need is information. Some activators contact the MT with information about phantom chases, allowing the MT to build up cases against individuals. Without this information the MT are powerless and the cheats and self-deluders thrive, with this information sanctions can be, have been and will be applied.
I take a friend along. We both make SOTA-compliant QSOs from a summit. I upload mine, but my friend doesn’t. For some folks, the fun ends when they’ve had their QSOs. They’re not interested in cumulative scores. Maybe they activate summits so infrequently that even 100 activator points seems way out of reach.
Indeed. For me, the problem with relying on the activator’s logs is that, when I activate, I’m keeping a pencil and paper log which I’ll transcribe at some point. If I knew I had to upload my log for those chasers to get their credit that’d add to the stress I feel while (and after) activating, which would probably mean I did even fewer activations than I do already. It’d also mean I’d be less inclined to invite folk who wouldn’t normally do a SOTA activation to join me when I went activating, because I’d feel bad if they didn’t get round to uploading their logs afterwards.
I also often think that we live in times with a lot of lies and deception.
But maybe things weren’t any better in the past. I recently saw in an Ameurfunk magazine from the 1930s that someone complained bitterly about other OM’s QRM.
Can the MT run a database query to match activator and chaser QSOs? This will tell us how many chaser QSOs are unmatched and could also produce a list of the worst offenders. This will tell us if there really is a problem or not.
It could exclude all activations where the activator hasn’t (yet) uploaded their log. And if it is likely to be an expensive query it could be done on an offline copy of the db.
I often read on this reflector about chasers’ bad behaviour but I can’t recall any topics about activators’ bad behaviour [I just did a quick search] …. what, like ‘activating’ from home in a nice warm cosy shack and pretending one went to the summit? [Very tempting in recent weather round here!]
It would be interesting to have the tables turned and hear from chasers about things that annoy or frustrate them about some activators - but without naming names/callsigns. And see if I’m unwittingly guilty of any of them. Such awareness could lead to correcting such behaviour.
We had one activator banned from the program for ever for cheating, i.e. not in the AZ but in his car. Another was required to provide proof, he gave up activating soon after proof was needed. And one guy who turned out to be genuinely activating. But he is no longer able to activate.
