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One foot on one summit and one foot on the other

Hi

I just worked Barry N1EU on 20m (thank you Barry) and like other stations working Barry we received a report and both SOTA references for the same QSO. Barry had one leg on one side of the border (W4C/CM-045) and one leg on the other side (W4T/SU-024) at the time each double contact was made.

I have also operated on border summits in EU but I made seperate contacts from each side of the border in OE and DL, by physically moving position. In other words the same stations were worked at different times and on each side of the border line and so two seperate QSOs resulted.

If this was DXCC and the then two distinct contacts would need to be made each side of the country border with the operator standing in each country.

Could someone from the MT please clarify if it is acceptable for a chaser and activator to claim points for both summits for a single QSO when the operator was straddling the border?

Merry Xmas

Phil

In reply to G4OBK:

We have answered this question before in the negative, but I cannot find the reference at present. Furthermore, the MT have instructed that no summits should count in the lists of two Associations where both Associations are part of the same DXCC country/entity. Hopefully the AMs of adjacent Associations (mainly in EA and W) are now negotiating to see which summits become the “property” of which Associations. If they cannot come to an amicable settlement soon the MT will take it upon themselves to decide! Hopefully this process will not be too prolonged as this is a situation that cannot be allowed to continue (hint, hint!) This ambiguity is one of the things that will be resolved in the next update of the GR.

73

Brian G8ADD

I think the only way the dual summit activations can be resolved is an amendment to the rules to say the activator, aerial and equipment must be situated within one of the activation points only and moved to activate the adjacent point.
When I worked Barry N1EU he gave me the same report for both and in turn I gave him his report for both as he was straddling the dividing line.73.Don. Merry Xmas ALL.

In reply to G0RQL:

As Barry’s modus operandi is not currently forbidden in the GR, although the MT have stated their position on this, I imagine that the contacts will be allowed to stand. I am in complete agreement with your suggestion, Don.

HC

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G4OBK:

Hello Phil,

this is only my personal opinion and might not be in accordance with the MT.

Cited from the SOTA-General-Rules:

“Where the mountain peak has been issued a reference number in two or more Associations, the Activator may claim points each Association provided that the Operating Position is always within the jurisdiction of the appropriate Association. Unless the licensing regulations decree otherwise, the position of the Operator is deemed to be the Operating Position.”

In combination with the given definition of the operating position, which clarifies that the precise location of the used transmitter and not the position of the activator is the crucial factor (Whatever the “precise” location of a transmitter is), there seems to be some conflicting statements.

A solomonic decision would be to count only half of the points for each of the summits :wink:

At the border region between Germany and Austria, I think, it is quiet clear. Depending on the prefix of the call sign you are using, i.e. either DL/ or OE/, it is clear whether you are operating on the german or on the austrian side of the border, therefore it would be not possible to activate two SOTA-references in one QSO.

I’ve seen you’ve spent a lot of effort changing your operating position while you activated two (or better four) summits on the Karwendel Klettersteig this summer. By the way, brilliant photos and a very nice trip report on your blog.

I decided for myself, that I don’t want to agonise which such a question. I’m just activating each border summit once, i.e. with only one reference. Therefore I “lost” about 120 activators points this year only. But I don’t worry about this. I enjoyed each summit, that’s my main reason for climbing up the summits.

I did quite the opposite of a double activation yesterday: After descending, when I arrived at the car park, I realised that I lost my antenna mast somewhere on the way down from the summit. Despite of the upcoming dawn, I decided to climb up the mountain again. And after nearly 700 meter elevation gain I found my antenna mast sticking in the snow not far away from the summit. In summation climbing up about 1400 meters for just 6 points.

Thanks for the contact yesterday.

Merry Christmas

73 Stephan, DM1LE

In reply to DM1LE:

Everyone likes something free… Extra points and the opportunity to think that Barry is “jigging” either side of the border!? Have a heart, let it stand and merry Christmas! :slight_smile:

In reply to G7LAS:

In reply to DM1LE:

Everyone likes something free… Extra points and the opportunity to
think that Barry is “jigging” either side of the border!? Have a
heart, let it stand and merry Christmas! :slight_smile:

Fair enough, on one proviso: look at the line on the map representing the border, measure its thickness and calculate how thick it would be on the ground. Barry’s feet must be straddling outside this line… :wink:

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:
.
Whilst scaling up the width of the line on the map, also scale up the little representation of a climber, so his stride would be about a quarter mile I should think. In reality, the line is infinitely thin. You could place your big toe on the line so that the two defects in your last pedicure straddle the demarcation.
.
In the US, some QSO parties allow you to straddle as many as four Counties and make a single contact for all four.
.
Elliott, K6ILM
Chaser Clown

In reply to G8ADD:

Why not taking into account the laws of wave propagation and diffraction:

Based on these laws the spatial resolution will be limited roughly to half of the wavelength. In the case of Barry, using the 20m band for his activation, the spatial tolerance for his operating position would be about 10m :wink:

In dubio pro reo.

73 Stephan, DM1LE

In reply to K6ILM:

Whilst scaling up the width of the line on the map, also scale up the
little representation of a climber, so his stride would be about a
quarter mile I should think. In reality, the line is infinitely thin.
You could place your big toe on the line so that the two defects in
your last pedicure straddle the demarcation.
.
In the US, some QSO parties allow you to straddle as many as four
Counties and make a single contact for all four.

Darn it, I had a lovely mental image of you doing the splits!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

In WAB we have a rule that unless the whole of the station cannot be located in the square/area then the Antenna feed point must be in the square/area. In the past some SOTA activators have moved so that the other WAB area could be worked.

I think straddling a dividing line is wrong and not in the spirit

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all

73 Graham G4JZF

What is for sure is that in SOTA we have a rule that you can only activate one reference at a time, so giving two references out per contact is not really on.

“Border” summits within a DXCC should not exist anyway, and need to be removed where two or more different references exist. Stations on a border summit, whether it be one that is currently valid but will be soon removed, or a genuine one on a national border, should conduct a complete activation from one site, then move their complete station to the other point and do a complete activation from there.

Tom M1EYP

In reply to M1EYP:

What is for sure is that in SOTA we have a rule that you can only
activate one reference at a time, so giving two references out per
contact is not really on.

I’ve been traveling since yesterday’s W4 activation and am back home in W2 now. Apologies for the brouhaha and my misunderstanding of what looked like a gray area to this multi-association activating newbie - thanks Tom for the sensible clarification. I was actually doing exactly what Tom described until I switched from cw to ssb and then the cold, thin mountain air and Christmas spirit got the better of me. Previously, at 1536Z on 40M cw, I announced that the switch was taking place from W4T/SU-024 to W4C/CM-045 and my SOTA activator log will reflect that change, with no W4T qso’s logged after that point in time. Sorry if this disappoints the ssb chasers, but I wish to be 100% in accord with the rules and the spirit of SOTA.

73 & Happy Holidays,
Barry N1EU

In reply to N1EU:
Tnx for the single activation Barry,my contact on W4T deleted.Merry Xmas & H.N.Y.Don G0RQL.

In reply to M1EYP:

What is for sure is that in SOTA we have a rule that you can only
activate one reference at a time, so giving two references out per
contact is not really on.

The trouble is that, whatever the intention, no such rule actually exists. The relevant rule is 3.7.1.13 and it says that “The Activator may claim points in each Association provided that the operating position is always within the jurisdiction of the appropriate Association. Unless the licensing regulations decree otherwise, the position of the operator is deemed to be the operating position.” By straddling the dividing line, and remaining in that position for the duration of the contact, an operator is effectively in both Associations and therefore can be said to be activating in both Associations at the same time. Alternatively by alternating his physical position each side of the line the operator can be entirely in first one and then the other Associations territory by making a short step. If we don’t want operations of this type to be valid we need to tighten up the wording of the rule!

73

Brian G8ADD

What I don’t get, and this is not a unique situation, is how one of these two identical summits is a 6 pointer and the other a 10!

Pete

In reply to G4ISJ:

This is because each Association is unique and the points bands are to a large degree set to reflect the distribution of summit heights in that Association. If the summit is worth ten points in one Association and six in a second Association, then you can see that the second Association must have higher summits than the first one, so the points bands are set higher.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

The ARRL’s Fred Fish Memorial Award allows contacts on the borders between maidenhead grid squares, or even on a corner where four squares meet. This is a common way to activate neighboring rare squares.

See rule 4d: http://www.arrl.org/ffma

“Stations who claim to operate from more than one grid locator simultaneously (i.e., from the boundary between two grid locators or from the intersection of four grid locators) must be physically present in all locators to give multiple locator credit with a single contact. …]”

The rest of the rule goes in a lot of detail about verification, far more than we use for SOTA.

wunder
K6WRU

In reply to G8ADD:

In reply to G4ISJ:

This is because each Association is unique and the points bands are to
a large degree set to reflect the distribution of summit heights in
that Association. If the summit is worth ten points in one Association
and six in a second Association, then you can see that the second
Association must have higher summits than the first one, so the points
bands are set higher.

Yes I’m falling into the trap of still thinking that height means points, which in turn, relates to difficulty!
I’m only, after a year in this game, realising that points in many cases relate to neither!
Merry Christmas.
Pete
Merry Christmas

In reply to G8ADD:

… it says that “The Activator
may claim points in each Association provided that the operating
position is always within the jurisdiction of the appropriate
Association…” By
straddling the dividing line, and remaining in that position for the
duration of the contact, an operator is effectively in both
Associations and therefore can be said to be activating in both
Associations at the same time.

You can get dreadfully screwed up with semantics in these concepts. I could argue that if the operator is straddling the line then the operating position as a whole is not in the jurisdiction of the appropriate Association. Only half the operating position is in the jurisdiction… which is not what is described by the rule. But you’re right Brian the wording in the rules needs to be more detailed. The advantage of such debate is that it helps us clarify.
73 & Merry Christmas to all.
Jim G0CQK