No, mate, I didn’t miss it! The point is that the madness, as you call it, is not confined to phone any more, if it ever was.
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Who said it was?
Well you have said that you went to CW to avoid the bad behaviour on phone.
I’m going to be Mr Obvious here. The problem, whatever the mode, is bad behaviour in the pile-up. The obvious solution is to eliminate pile-ups. Its always the same, a Spot appears for an activation and in a few minutes a pile-up appears. Close down Spots, or just give the band, and let the chasers hunt for you as they did before spotting was possible. There would be no pile-up, or at least the pile-up would be small. I doubt that this would be a popular idea but it would work.
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It/s very hard (though by no means impossible) to DQRM on FT4/FT8. Of course split operation is almost always in use on these JT modes! So if the standards of operating behaviour on CW and SSB become too much to bear, come and join us civilised lot activating on FT4/8!
You know it makes sense.
(And then, like me, go back to CW and SSB and do that as well, because it’s fun and I can handle a pile-up - even the naughty ones 
)
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I’ve been practicing for my first CW activation by finding big pile-ups and seeing if i can pull out some of the chasers. I’m not calling so there’s no pressure. I’m going to start with 15 meters and maybe try 20 and 30 once I’m more experienced.
Im going to be qrp on a YouKits hb-1b cw only, so i might survive hi.
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Unfortunately I had this sorry operating happen to me on 10m, unfortunately everyone was DX calling and several sending calls over & over! The main problem is I’m QRP, 5w CW, when these chaser’s call over me while trying to work a partial call or if I caught a full call it only slows down my activation and their ability to get in the log. My theory is newer op’s not asking or seeing or being shown proper ways to go about chasing or operating a pile up 
. I will say, if you spot yourself on POTA and you’re on a SOTA, it gets worse unfortunately. I haven’t read over any test questions in a couple years, but if the few about DX Conduct was removed, that’s a major issue in my opinion. I had a F1, call me over & over, like four times, I went back like 4 times with a report and still calling 
, I understand we have QSB at times, but it was like calling blind! If you don’t hear the activator, why ruin the fun for other chaser’s and the activator? It gets very frustrating because I want to log every DX I hear! I will say, I sent QRZ SOTA DX? and folks in the USA stood by, even when I sent QRZ SOTA S2S? everyone stood by, why not listen, listen and listen again before sending your call numerous times over & over on top of not only the activator but other chaser’s you may not hear? Glad to know I’m not the only one who feels like “LIDS” follow my activation’s. TNX for bringing this behavior up!
72 W4JL Dave
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This is the key but so many don’t use their ears. I’ve just heard the same HB9 station sending over the activator and another sending /P /P over the QSO.
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40m SSB pileups are great fun. I generally find they are well behaved.
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Wot? No! – a bonkers idea if I might say so - even if anyone found a way to eliminate them. Many of us appreciate getting a pileup and even enjoy the challenge. I for one appreciate the enthusiasm of those chasers wishing to work me.
Would be easy for you sitting in your comfy warm shack. [Brian, don’t tell us of ancient glories going up hills].
I’ve had pileups when there was no phone reception to self-spot. Perhaps you want to close down the RBNs too.
Why are no pileups or small pileups better than big pileups? Let’s get this into prospective: Andy posts about one bad pileup experience, but I’m sure he’s had 100’s of good ones, like most of us. This talk is a disservice to the vast majority of SOTA chasers who are polite and patient. This ‘solution’ sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
It isn’t and it wouldn’t.
I don’t fancy freezing my butt off [not to mention my fingers and feet] on a wind-swept, rain-lashed summit calling CQ for ages.
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Actually, it only sort of works.
I rarely spot on my rare outings ( I do alert though). I’ve never had any real issues on HF SSB getting at least 4. In fact my last outing on G/SP-017 I didn’t spot and just called CQ on 10m SSB . It was kind of odd, it was either very local (within 30 miles) or USA station, but that’s propagation for you. However I digress. One advantage of not self spotting is that you can get into the swing of it before any pileup forms. Just ask someone else to make the spot and generally they will do so.
I’m not advocating turning spots off, its a choice I make, and by turning off spots denies someone else to make a different choice.
Depending on your location, if that also translates into a POTA, WFF, IOTA it will get spotted somewhere anyway. That genie isn’t going back into any bottle anytime soon.
One issue is psychological, an activation isn’t like most other type of DXpedition. There maybe a start time, but there is no defined end time. Very few state “I’ll be activating the summit for 10 hour”, so there’s an unknown window of opportunity. Partially based on propagation, and partially based on the whim of the activator. This causes chasers to clamor to be first in the queue and not miss out. Not excusing bad behaviour, just postulating a possible cause, and one that is unlikely to be eliminated.
Another possible cause, and one I’ve spotted a few times since I mostly SWL from home, is activators disappearing to work a summit to summit on another frequency after seeing (or being informed of the other summit in some way). I have been listening to two different activators on two different bands and then one will suddenly move to work the other. Mostly they will return to their original QRG, but sometimes not . Not saying they shouldn’t do this, after all the activator can push any buttons on their equipment they like, but again forwarding it as a possible reason why some chaser maybe more voracious as they feel the need to get in there quick.
Ian
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I would have thought that was obvious, Andy. It reduces the competing voices (or tones) making it easier to sort out one to call. Instead of all at once the chasers trickled in.
Oh you poor soul! Let me see, you joined in '17 when things were much as they are now. That which you “don’t fancy” was how SOTA really was for a long time, Andy. No Spots, no RBN, you posted your intentions on the Group: summit, band(s), rough time, rough frequency, you found a clear(ish) frequency, crossed your fingers and called CQ…and people found you. I guess it was a bit easier on 40m then as it was only 100 kHz wide, but that made it even more crowded than it is now. The Spots page is an agreeable luxury, but it can and has been done without and yet SOTA thrived. Of course it is difficult to give up luxuries when you are used to them, I did not expect the suggestion to be popular, and indeed it was offered in a tongue in cheek manner, since I saw no chance that it would ever be acted on, but I think that the thought is valid: propagation permitting, activations are easy to find so everybody arrives more or less at once. So, Andy, you say it wouldn’t work, but it HAS worked, and worked well.
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Well said Dave. I enjoyed chasing you from summit to summit and I thought that you handled the pileups rather well.
de W6LEN / Jess
Hi Brian, let’s start with your condescending tone …
I tried to be polite with you whilst disagreeing with your points. You should counter my arguments not the person.
Like many activators I don’t want to have “chasers trickled in” as a means of avoiding a pile-up. At my age (similar to yours) I don’t want unnecessarily to prolong the time I’m exposed to adverse weather on summit. As @M1EYP and I stated earlier there are ways of managing a CW pile-up – and so far, most of us haven’t felt the need even to resort to using split mode yet. As a non-CW operator, I don’t think you are qualified to say that your ‘obvious’ solution is better.
You have completely misrepresented what I “don’t fancy”. I was clearly referring to getting cold if I have to stay on summit too long in winter (trying to get contacts). Having a pile-up gets my summit qualified quicker than if I have repeatedly to call CQ and wait for a reply.
Yes, I’ve been doing SOTA [only] since 2017 but my portable VHF and HF experience dates from the early 1990’s (using only simple QRP rigs and a straight key). So, I know all about operating without alerts, spots, RBNs, etc. In fact, I have written more than once on this reflector contrasting operating then and now.
But all this is avoiding the original issue, i.e. you suggested getting rid of pile-ups (maybe you don’t like them) but many activators like me like them and don’t have a problem handling them.
Okay, let’s pretend that we all agreed with you – that pile-ups are a ‘bad thing’, do you have a practical suggestion as to how to eliminate them? [I already told you, not spotting doesn’t prevent SOTA pileups; Exotic Dx callsigns get pile-ups without them]
When you say ‘it has worked’, what you mean is, SOTA didn’t get pile-ups [or so many] in its early days. Perhaps you would prefer it was still like that but many of us are happy with how SOTA works today.
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No, you didn’t, Andy. You went straight into attack mode. If you gibe at someone they are likely to gibe back. I don’t want this to continue, and degrade the thread, so I’ll leave it at that.
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On my first (failed) attempt to activate I didn’t manage to put up a spot and after an hour only managed 3 contacts. Given the choice I prefer a pile up to erm… failing to activate. Yes they can be frustrating (40m SSB) but usually I find the chasers remarkably tolerant of my ability to drop the log, invert a callsign or find that there is a spaniel around the feeder and the whole lot is about to fall over….and I know my CW isn’t brilliant so if I chase I wait until the end of the activation. I would agree some chasers are better behaved than others.
Finally it is worth remembering it is important to us but it is a hobby. When I was on the MRT we carried Morphine which could potentially save a life if administered correctly or kill if not. That was a decision to worry about. 73. Paul ( Putting the Amateur in Radio?)
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If you read my original post carefully, you’ll find I disagreed with your suggestion (i.e. to get rid of pile-ups) and not you as a person, e.g. “bonkers idea” not “bonkers person”.
I did not use rude or condescending language (e.g. “Oh you poor soul!”) which IMO is a sign that the person has a weak or no argument.
We’ve all grown-ups here, so if I post an opinion on this reflector - which I do frequently - I can expect others to challenge that opinion robustly even colourfully albeit still politely. I might even change my mind if they make cogent points. We all stand to benefit from constructive debates.
But if you (or anyone) reply with [IMO] invalid points or misrepresent what I wrote, or make strawman points then I’ll come back again. That’s not “to gibe” someone, it’s to make and defend an argument.
If any one else has bothered to read this exchange to this point, let me finish by saying something more positive:
- I think Andy’s bad experience is the exception to the rule (which is why it’s newsworthy)
- There’s no (reported) evidence [yet] to suggest this is part of a trend
- No one learning Morse should be put off doing CW activations by these uncommon experiences
- Lots of chasers and pile-ups are healthy signs that SOTA is very popular
- I speak for many who are happy with pile-ups and the behaviour of the vast majority of chasers
- The SOTA scheme is working fine as it is (e.g. with alerts, spots, RBNs) and gives many of us lots of pleasure
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There is a difference between “pile ups” and poor behaviour. They are not necessarily linked. Pile ups are a feature of a popular or desired callsign/location. Whether people enjoy operating in a pile up is down to those individuals and there are various ways to deal with them.
Poor operating practice on the other hand is what I think the OP was about. Sometimes it can be inadvertent and a quiet word of advice is all that is required to correct the offender. For the rest these threads serve no purpose except to raise some people’s blood pressure
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Why would abolishing the morse code test have made any difference?
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Indeed, poor operating practice has been around for a long time. I still recall having to “throw my rattle out of the pram” on 10MHz CW from Burnhope Seat G/NP-003… and that was in June 2010.
I just looked up my report on the activation and note that it was people not listening to my request for a specific callsign that was the issue. It seems I was actually listened to on that occasion as I then referred to the activation afterwards having gone smoothly. Hmm, maybe manners have got worse over the past 13 years. 
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Yes but there was an occasion on 40m CW earlier this year. On both occasions it was just continuous calls being sent and never a gap for me to send. No problems apart from these two cases.
Pileups can be daunting but once you’ve cleared them it is immensely satisfying to have done so.
Someone said maybe too few activations on 40/30/20 for local chasers makes people go wild. Local as not DX! I’ll look at the spots logs to see how much 40/30/20 maybe missing. This summit is not activated too often, maybe it’s rare. 7 activations in the last 10 years but I think many were 2m FM only.
My decision to do less 40m SSB is because I was fed up with the poor operating of some UK chasers. I will sit on the WAB net instead, get run down their list, work 15 stations in 20mins and move on. It’s effortless. The group there ensures QSOs are valid too.
The problem is there are enough SSB only UK stations who cannot operate radio that they spoil 40m. The person who cannot hear me but believes they can or can only hear the occasional syllable but insist on calling. You have to be pretty damn thick to call someone you can’t hear. You may have more power and antenna than a QRP activator and I may hear you call me but if you cannot hear me they are just QRMing everyone else. What happens is they call, I work someone else and these incompetent operators will then assume that because I’ve gone back to someone I must be coming back to them DESPITE the fact they never heard their call. So they TX over the top of other stations thus making a QSO take minutes and minutes to complete. I’ve learnt to never give the call of these people and tell them to wait because that is when they’ll hear me give a letter in their call and that only encourages them to QRM more. See, that’s what happens when people who can’t hear the “dx” insist on transmitting. It’s the same calls time and time again. I don’t have enough minutes left on Earth to waste them with such stupid people disrupting things for those who can operate. Hence the delight of the WAB net.
I do need to get contact details of a few of my regular UK chasers so I can advise them I am on the WAB net so they can get the chase as they have supported me for so long.
This happens on CW too but it’s much less disruptive. A few stations do this on CW regularly. Most of the phantom CW chases are someone logging a QSO with me when I never even heard them!
You have to ask how can people be so stupid to call the “dx” when they can’t hear the “dx”. What are they expecting to happen… we’ll use ESP to make contact?
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