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Wrong refernce!


#1

Dear Friends,
today I mistakingly announced HB/VS-111 instead of HB/VS-101(at 0915ut) (7 mc CW operation, F/HB9AFI/p) I probably sufferd from the Hot WX up there, after a long ascent.
please correct your log.

sorry…

73 kurt HB9AFI


#2

In reply to HB9AFI:

Hi Kurt,
I was desperate to qso you on ‘my summit Riederhorn VS-111’ and wondered how you got to next summit very quickly, hi !!
Sorry about the the hot wx - at least, no deep snow!!

73s de Peter G3TJE+


#3

In reply to HB9AFI:

Hi Kurt,
I have you in the log at 0915 as HE8AFI/P, ref HB/VS-111, now corrected to VS-101.
45 min later I also logged F/HB9AFI/P from F/AB-279. Is this correct?
I thought you were on the border somewhere making it to the French summit very fast.
GL, 73 Petr OK1CZ


#4

In reply to OK1CZ:


#5

In reply to HB9AFI:
Yes indeed we (HB9CGL/p and me) were on the border F / HB activating HB/VS-101 and F/AB-279, we had an antenna on each side of the border mark… 73 kurt


#6

In reply to HB9AFI:

we had an antenna on each side of the border
mark… 73 kurt

One foot in each country… how wide is the line ???

73 Alain


#7

In reply to F6ENO:

The position of the antenna is irrelevant, according to rule 3.7.1.13 the position of the activator counts, so where a border crosses a summit all you have to do is move your operating position to the other side of the border. I don’t know about you, but I find this image amusing - stand up, move a metre or so, sit down, and voila! a new activation!

73

Brian G8ADD


#8

In reply to G8ADD:

I find this image amusing - stand up, move a metre or so, sit down, and voila!
a new activation!

Does that hold true for G/SB-004? It’s AZ straddles the GM/G border so can I activate it as M0FMF for 4pts then walk a few metres and activate it as MM0FMF for 2pts on the same day?

Andy
MA0FMF


#9

In reply to G8ADD and MA0FMF:

So Brian we can leave our antennas set up at the parking spot and walk uphill with the reel of coax - quite convenient since the load reduces as you climb :wink: Incidentally, I did activate G/WB-001 from the English side and signed as G4OIG/P and GW/SW-041 from the Welsh side and signed as GW4OIG/P - even the ascents were started within the relevant country, though I do admit to walking through a piece of England before getting back into Wales to activate SW-041.

As for Peel Fell, the system won’t work for you Andy - the summit only has one reference. Perhaps you ought to use your AM powers and add it as GM/SS-285 - I’d certainly do it and sign GM from a position north of the border. It’s quite a nice summit.

73, Gerald


#10

No Andy. Check out SOTA General Rules 3.7.1 (13): Where the mountain peak has been issued a reference number in two or more Associations, the Activator may claim points each Association provided that the Operating Position is always within the jurisdiction of the appropriate Association.

SB-004 has only been issued a reference number from the G association, so it isn’t possible reactivate it in Scotland!

Tom M1EYP


#11

In reply to M1EYP:

Sorry just pushing the envelope Tom as I did know that. It’s a tadge, not even a bit but just a tadge, annoying that some hills have two refs and this one which nice straddles the border, is a reasonable walk and is not that far away from me has only has one ref.

Andy
MA0FMF


#12

The case of this one, and indeed Black Mountain GW/SW-041 (whose AZ straddles the G/GW border), has been discussed amongst the MT in the past. The general feeling was that we would prefer to remain in sync with the RHB lists, which also only have these hills existing in one country at a time - although that country has changed in the case of Black Mountain!

73, Tom


#13

In reply to M1EYP:

Also I don’t think it can be issued a reference number by the GM Association as they can only claim part of the AZ, the summit is not shared. Dual ownership can only happen where the border actually is drawn through the highest point.

Gerald, you raise another anomaly, if the antenna is left on the car and a long length of coax run to the operating position is this within the rules? We know that the converse is actually against the letter of the rules, setting up a remote antenna and operating from the comfort of the car, but the rules say that the position of the operator is the location of the activation, so my first thought is that your improbable little scenario is actually valid. I also think it is against the spirit of the rules so I hope it never arises!

73

Brian G8ADD


#14

Surely the antenna still being on the car - even if you yourself were on the summit - would still contravene the ‘operation from a motor vehicle’ rule even if the position of the operator was valid!

Anyway, it’s a silly discussion! I can hardly imagine the mess you would get into laying out - and later retrieving that long feeder, not to mention the losses involved!

I don’t think we need worry about any of this, simply because walking up and using a simple portable station is so much easier (and more desirable) than what is being described!

Tom M1EYP


#15

In reply to G8ADD:

I don’t know about you, but I find this image
amusing - stand up, move a metre or so, sit down, and voila! a new
activation!

Fine Brian, and fortunatly (for Kurt), there were no custom officer on the border…

73 Alain


#16

In reply to G8ADD:

I don’t know about you, but I find this image
amusing - stand up, move a metre or so, sit down, and voila! a new
activation!

well, I am a bit confused now. I thought it’d be neccessary to descend and reascend the summit within the borders of the corresponding association in order to activate its other reference (rulechange October 2005 IIRC). I always was communicating this to potential activators whenever I was asked how this case has to be managed. Could anyone of the MT please kindly confirm that it is sufficient to simply move across the border on top of the summit to activate it twice?

thanks
Bernhard DL4CW


#17

In reply to DL4CW:

General Rule 3.7.1 paragraph 13 applies, and states

“Where the mountain peak has been issued a reference number in two or more Associations, the Activator may claim points each Association provided that the Operating Position is always within the jurisdiction of the appropriate Association. Unless the licensing regulations decree otherwise, the position of the Operator is deemed to be the Operating Position. The same peak may be activated for points once per year in each Association.”

The change became effective from 1st March 2009, when it was introduced to clarify the situation for shared summits. The previous rule stated

“Where the mountain peak has been issued a reference number in two or more Associations, the Activator may only claim points from one Association on any one day (defined as 00:01 to 23:59 UTC). The Operating Position must also be within the Association. The same peak may be activated for points once per year in each Association, but each activation must be on a different day (as previously defined).”

The original intention was that each reference would be activated on a separate ascent, hence the requirement for different days. However, as more SOTA Associations joined in time zones many hours removed from UTC, it was realised that the original rule would place European activators at a disadvantage (for example, UTC days in W2 change at 19:00 local time). Rather than attempt to create a complicated rule that would cover all eventualities, it was decided to keep it simple - hence the current rule.

After consultation with the UK licensing authority, who clarified that the licence (and therefore callsign) applied to the operator rather than the components of the station, it was decided that the position of the operator alone would define the SOTA location of the activation.

Without access to full details of all shared references, I would surmise that the vast majority of border summits are of a significant stature, and therefore the potential for double points on these does not represent an easy option. I’m sure that somebody will now attempt to disprove my hypothesis!

I hope that both clarifies the rule, and the rationale behind the change.

73 de Les, G3VQO


#18

In reply to G3VQO:

thank you very much Les!

I should study the rules more frequently to become aware of these - most important - changes.

73 Bernhard DL4CW


#19

In reply to G3VQO:

SOTA becomes farce more and more…

73 de Dzianis DD1LD


#20

In reply to DD1LD:

Apparently I did stir up some discussion on Summits on Borders with two ref. nr. from two associations! I knew about the rule to be able to claim the two on the same trip. Of course we moved the operating position separated by about 10 to 20 meters on each side of the marker, altough we left the two antennas for some time…
I my area I know of only two such accessible “two country” summits", so do not expect to many of such “questionable” activations…

73 kurt HB9AFI