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Question to MT: Summit on border with 2 references


#1

Hello,
On the Italian and French border, there are few summits with a double reference; for exemple Monte Grammondo F/AM-512 and I/LG-309.

My question:
Am i right to activate the same day those two summits, sitting on the Italian side of the border and using the call I/F6HBI/P and moving to the French side of the border using my call F6HBI/P?

73’s Gerald F6HBI


#2

Am i right to activate the same day those two summits, sitting on the
Italian side of the border and using the call I/F6HBI/P and moving to
the French side of the border using my call F6HBI/P?

General rule 3.7.1 clause 13 says that the answer is “yes”.


#3

In reply to M1MAJ:

I seem to recall this being discussed in the past and the consensus was it all depends on which side of the hill you ascend from as to which ONE you can activate.

Maybe wrong and if I am I am sure ADD will take great delight again in shooting me down in flames.


#4

In reply to M0LKB:

I seem to recall this being discussed in the past and the consensus
was it all depends on which side of the hill you ascend from as to
which ONE you can activate.

I think the rules used to say that, but were changed, possibly because it would be hard to define what “ascend from” actually means. I suppose a plausible definition might have been “the country in which you enter the activation area” but I don’t think it actually did say that.

The revision history in the General Rules does indicate that there have been revisions to this rule.


#5

In reply to M1MAJ:

Thanks Martyn, as I said I just recalled there being discussions in the area.


#6

In reply to M0LKB:
Thanks for you answer,

I am not able to find out the previous discussion about that topic in the relector…
If i refer to the rules, it is not forbidden to give/get points using the 2 references (Italian and French), just moving from one side or other of the border.
And it looks like to be “good sense” that the reference to use is the one from where the departure of climbing is…

In this case, i will clib it twice (hi) getting down 150m turn round the summmit, climb again from the other side…

Gerald


#7

In reply to F6HBI:

Gerald, just to ensure that you do not undertake any unnecessary climbing, it is quite legitimate to climb from the French side to operate on your side of the border. Later you can step across the border into Italy and operate from there. You will get both points!

It is NOT necessary to descend from the AZ and re-ascend in Italy. That was just a suggestion in the previous discussion some years ago. Of course, you may choose to make more effort than the rules actually require. Many activators observe their own additional, self-imposed, rules as to what constitues a valid activation in their mind. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does not overrule other, simpler interpretations.

If I ever get to the top of a summit on the French/Italian border, which seems unlikely, I certainly won’t be adding unnecessary climbing to my day! Anyway, who else would actually know?

73 de Les, G3VQO


#8

In reply to G3VQO:
Hi! Les,
Thanks for this anwer that i like very much:
“Many activators observe their own additional, self-imposed, rules…”

In fact the best thing would be to add in the officials rules,
either activator cannot activate 2 references (for a unique summit) a day.
either activator can… unless special conditions…

best 73’s and cu from summits, Gérald F6HBI


#9

In reply to F6HBI:

My question:
Am i right to activate the same day those two summits, sitting on the
Italian side of the border and using the call I/F6HBI/P and moving to
the French side of the border using my call F6HBI/P?

It would be easier if you could string a dipole, centred on the border, with one leg in Italy and one leg in France and just give a dual report to each chaser! :slight_smile:

Pete


#10

In reply to G4ISJ:

It would be easier if you could string a dipole, centred on the
border, with one leg in Italy and one leg in France and just give a
dual report to each chaser! :slight_smile:

As we English might say Pete, “that’s hardly cricket old man!”

There was a discussion on this subject some time ago and I seem to recall that it was suggested that the operator should be in one country for one activation followed by a move by the operator to the other country (which could be a move of no more than a few metres) in order to carry out the second activation. Therefore the two countries would not be activated simultaneously.

There have been many activations of dual summits along the S5 / OE border and others where this mode of operating has largely been adhered to.

73, Gerald G4OIG


#11

In reply to G4ISJ:

It would be easier if you could string a dipole, centred on the
border, with one leg in Italy and one leg in France and just give a
dual report to each chaser! :slight_smile:

The rules say that (unless licence conditions dictate otherwise) it is the OPERATOR position that defines the association being activated. So it is the activator who would need one leg in France and one leg in Italy! Of course you would need to know the location of the boundary pretty accurately to take advantage of this loophole.

Caroline and I had enough trouble working out whether we were activating GW/SW-041 from England or Wales! So far we’ve done one activation from each, and I’m pretty sure we got it right. At least in this case the reference is fixed and the only concern is the prefix to use. ]

I think that if I had been writing the rules, I might have said that an activator cannot claim both references on the same day.


#12

In reply to M1MAJ:

The border along GW/SW-041 is the crest of the Hatterall Ridge, which is a few yards away from, and parallel to the Offa’s Dyke Path. There is a small summit cairn at the highest point, so if you are on the other side of the path from the cairn, or in-between the two, you are in England. If the cairn is between you and the footpath, you are in Wales.

Tom M1EYP


#13

In reply to ALL:

It only happens when a summit is on a national boundary and I do mean the border runs across the top of the summit not just through the AZ. That’s because it’s impossible to say that such a summit is only in 1 country not both. Summits that straddle regional boundaries are being removed so there is only one reference for the summit rather than 2. A lot of this has already happened.

Out of the 48000 or so current summits there are only a few summits that this occurs on.

Andy
MM0FMF


#14

In reply to M1EYP:

The border along GW/SW-041 is the crest of the Hatterall Ridge, which
is a few yards away from, and parallel to the Offa’s Dyke Path. There
is a small summit cairn at the highest point, so if you are on the
other side of the path from the cairn, or in-between the two, you are
in England. If the cairn is between you and the footpath, you are in
Wales.

Ta. Our first activation was definitely from England, and mightily confused some chasers.

The activation area is pretty big though, and on this last activation we didn’t go quite as far as the true summit, so the cairn wouldn’t have been a useful reference. The divergence between the path and the boundary seems to vary along its length. The GPS track placed us just a few metres inside Wales, so we used MW prefixes.

I think we were right. If we were wrong, nothing can be done about it now!


#15

Indeed. I too, apart from once when Jimmy “made” me go all the way to the true summit, have always activated from the northern end of the large, long, flat activation zone. And, as you suggest, I believe the national boundary and the ODP are pretty much coincidental at this point. So at this end, I tend to use the path itself as the border that informs me whether to sign M or MW!

I too once confused everyone by signing MW when the reference was G/WB-001. The last few times, tempted as I was to sign M with a GW reference, I decided to “play it safe” and go MW and GW. The “shelter” of which there is very little anyway, was slightly better on the Welsh side of the path, so that was that.

Tom M1EYP