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P100 etc - no cheese please


#1

To quote Brian from the other thread which was becoming smelly :frowning:

'Just to be clear about this, the more acrimonious discussions were about whether the G Association should change to P100, the points matter raises little heat here. After all, if the high ranges attracted extra points chasers in the UK would stand to gain! The problem is, as you appreciate, how to proceed rather than rooted objections to change.

73

Brian G8ADD’

I sensed , have no evidence, the main objection to P100 was it would dilute the value of awards already achieved. Could I suggest that the award system be two tier , for sake of argument Basic and Advanced.
Each ARM would have an Advanced list which would be the present status quo,
and it could add another list of summits which would not meet the present criteria but would have relevance to that association.

EG England ARM Advanced P150 - Basic P100.
The database should be capable with a little tweaking of issuing the correct level of award.

The certificates could remain the same with an endorsement sticker for basic.
The Trophy should be for advanced only.

So:-

Advanced - Summits meeting present criteria only
- Same cerrtificate
- Trophy

Basic - mixture of present and new summit list
- endorsed certificate
- no trophy

That’s my suggestion for a way forward.

Roger G4OWG (donning flack jacket)


#2

In reply to G4OWG:

“no cheese please”

Surely you won’t pass on the opportunity to have a little whine?

73

Richard
G3CWI


#3

In reply to G4OWG:

The fairest way would be for all the points to be based on the prominence. ie P100 = 1 point, P200 = 2 points and so on and that would mean we could include valleys based on the depth of prominence so DP100 would equal minus 1 point and so on ;0) Seriously who would do the work? and even then it does not take in to the equation difficulty and distance needed to walk in or height climbed to reach the lowest point of the prominence.

To be perfectly plain I do not wish to see any more summits added to the UK list however easy or difficult they might be because as the list stands it is a lifetimes work to do what we have and I for one would feel seriously angry at the goal posts being moved after all the time and effort I have put into trying to chase every summit and the costs involved in activating what I have. I have just paid over £1,000 for accommodation so I can complete DC and tackle some SC summits. I expect to spend a similar amount to do the same thing for a summer jaunt to Scotland in August. Telling me there will now be an extra (insert number here) will simply result in me giving up there and then even though I know it would allow some wonderful walks in to the scheme such as Catbells in the Lake District.

Hope you have your tin hat too, Roger.

Regards Steve GW7AAV


#4

In reply to thread:

To be honest, the way that discussion of the P100 for G proposal has descended into acrimony in the past has left me feeling sensitive and I winced when I saw the topic come up again. So you will understand why I say this at this time: if the discussion of this topic starts going downhill I will lock the thread down and prevent new threads on the topic from being opened, at least for a while.

Having said that, a few general thoughts:

What is the purpose of P100? With one notable exception, the MT have permitted P100 where it makes the difference between a viable and a non-viable Association. Without P100 there would be no Dutch Association and a scarcity of summits in Belgium, so the reasons for P100 there are obvious. At present the MT has no hard and fast rule to determine whether P100 should be adopted, the advice of the AM and a little commonsense does the job. However, I have devised a parameter that I call Summit Density, SD, which I think can help the decision making process. You take the surface area of a country and divide it by the number of summits which gives you how many square kilometres of country for one summit, this tells you whether summits are sparce or plentiful. You still need commonsense, of course, suppose we have a country with many summits in one small area and very few over the rest, then P100 might be justified even if the SD seems very high.

Let us look at some figures: Firstly some with sparce summits

PA…10382
ZS…3845
OH…2663
ON…1900
SP…1485
SM…1279

Now some with plentiful summits

HB0…15
OE…33
HB…37
S5…51
GM…63

Now, where does G fit in?

I think we can agree that England is middle of the road in summit density, and that P100 is not necessary to make it viable as an Association. In fact the only reason that I can see for granting P100 to the Association is the lop-sided distribution of hills, unless you consider that individuals running out of uniques is a valid reason.

Having tried to describe the situation vis. P100 for G as dispassionately as I can, I will now see where the discussion takes us, but remember, keep it cordial or I will borrow Eugene’s axe!

73

Brian G8ADD


#5

In reply to G8ADD:

Brian why do you do tempt me so? I try to keep on topic then you mention Eugene’s axe. Now I have to get the Pink Floyd CDs out.


#6

In reply to G4OWG:

For GM we’d have P150 for the basic and probably P500 for the advanced. Otherwise the number of peaks becomes somewhat unmanagable.

Andy
MM0FMF


#7

Now now Steve, Roger did specify “no cheese please”. Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon - and we all know what the moon is made of, don’t we? So no Pink Floyd either. (Just started doing “Money” with the band - great fun).

Tom M1EYP


#8

In reply to G8ADD:
Brian I am in favour of P100 but if it never happens then so be it- I won’t ‘throw my rattle out of the pram’ (or even whine Richard) .
Your idea is logical until “In fact the only reason that I can see for granting P100 to the Association is the lop-sided distribution of hills”. A rule should for all, not open to modification for just some.
The problem has occurred, in my eyes, because the MT did not stick to its guns insisting on P150 for everyone.

Roger G4OWG
(Just put in a bid for that Nuclear Bunker for sale in the Peak District )


#9

In reply to M1EYP:
I like a bit of Interstellar Overdrive :slight_smile:

Roger G4OWG


#10

In reply to G4OWG:

In reply to G8ADD:

Your idea is logical until “In fact the only reason that I can
see for granting P100 to the Association is the lop-sided distribution
of hills”. A rule should for all, not open to modification for
just some.
The problem has occurred, in my eyes, because the MT did not stick to
its guns insisting on P150 for everyone.

Roger G4OWG

You will remember where I mentioned commonsense and a country with many summits in one small area, I was raising the possibility that somebody might cite the relative shortage of summits south of a line from the Wash to the Severn Estuary.

It is funny how many people talk about the MT as if it is eternal. None of the current MT served in the early days, so I have no idea of what transpired then. However, if we insisted on P150 for everyone, just for a start there would be no PA Association.

73

Brian G8ADD

PS All right, forget the Floyd (as if one could!) if there is trouble I shall unleash Apocalypse in 9/8!


#11

However, if we insisted on P150 for everyone,

just for a start there would be no PA Association.

73

Brian G8ADD

PS All right, forget the Floyd (as if one could!) if there is trouble
I shall unleash Apocalypse in 9/8!

And no reason for anyone to press for G P100 :wink:

5/4 is hard enough for me - I do like Brubeck :slight_smile:

Roger G4OWG

All my posts are without acrimony - I can’t find it in the periodic table


#12

In reply to G4OWG:

Acrimony? Sure its there, right next to unobtainium!:-))

73

Brian G8ADD


#13

In reply to MM0FMF:
Having suffered from low blood pressure half way up one of your 4 pointers (GM/SI-006), which put me off activating for 6 months and I still worry about activating alone, I suggest any GM P500 should be Mountain Goat.
I’ll be up your way in May booked cottage near Duns. So any info on North Berwick Law, Arthur’s Seat, Dirrington Great Law,Spartleton and Allermuir Hill would be appreciated. Meikle Says Law at 6 miles round trip is a bit beyond me now. Wonder why I am so interested in P100???

Roger G4OWG


#14

I have just paid over £1,000
for accommodation so I can complete DC and tackle some SC summits. I
expect to spend a similar amount to do the same thing for a summer
jaunt to Scotland in August.

Regards Steve GW7AAV

Family too big Steve?
Last Sept/October SC (Dorset) Cottage £275, petrol £200, food/drink took most with us so with XYLs M&S 20% discount about £200.
This May slightly more expensive cottage in Scottish Borders but less petrol so probably about same.
October Looking at East Sussex for as many SE summits as I can get away with in a week.

And I’m on a pension!!

Roger G4OWG

ps Last time I went up Catbells it was so hot we were rationing the dogs water between 5 of us and the bl**d* sheep pinched my sandwiches.

Roger G4OWG


#15

The words “September” and “October” are the biggest giveaways Roger. There aren’t any cottages going for £275 in the weeks that I can get away with the kids. You might be on a pension, but at least that means you don’t have to pay the ridiculously inflated prices for holidays in school holiday time! I’m sure you recall that particular irritation well.

Catbells - very nice and all that, but maybe a bit overrated as a result of AW’s personal attachment to it? Marianne and I went up it on our wedding anniversary a few years ago after taking the steamer across from Keswick. It was only a trivial 2 hour circular walk after that, and would be a lot less with a straight up and down. And of course, lots of people swarming all over it! My instinct was to traverse the ridge across to Dale Head G/LD-020 and activate it with the handheld, but such behaviour is never wise on one’s wedding anniversary.

Not met any Killer Butty Thieving sheep since at Top Withins on the Pennine Way in 2006 (with Stuart G0MJG and Jimmy M3EYP), although a very young lamb I rescued on Kinder Scout G/SP-001 in 2008 was trying to suckle to my Berghaus jacket for about five minutes!

Tom M1EYP


#16

In reply to G4OWG:
I may be misinterpreting you, Roger, but P100s wont necessarily be any easier than P150s. Scafell would become a SOTA summit, and if you do that after the Pike you will need strong arms! Bowfell would also become a SOTA summit and thats a good trek, too! Those advocating P100 like the idea of more summits, particularly if linked by a single walk.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to MM0FMF:

I’ll be up your way in May booked cottage near Duns. So any info on
North Berwick Law, Arthur’s Seat, Dirrington Great Law,Spartleton and
Allermuir Hill would be appreciated. Meikle Says Law at 6 miles round
trip is a bit beyond me now. Wonder why I am so interested in P100???

Roger G4OWG


#17

In reply to G4OWG:

Family too big Steve?

Yes!


#18

In reply to G4OWG:

I’ll be up your way in May booked cottage near Duns. So any info on
North Berwick Law, Arthur’s Seat, Dirrington Great Law,Spartleton and
Allermuir Hill would be appreciated. Meikle Says Law at 6 miles round
trip is a bit beyond me now. Wonder why I am so interested in P100???

Roger G4OWG

In order…

North Berwick Law takes about 18mins from the carpark to the trig. I dragged that old pensioner Brian G(M)4ZRP about with me for a week and I couldn’t outpace the old fogey by much! It took him 22minutes but he had to stop and blow his nose on the way up :slight_smile: It’s steep but easy. You can squeeze a 60m dipole on the top if there aren’t too many visitors. Well worth a visit as is the lovely town of North Berwick, there’s a good chippy there. Also East Fortune Air Museum is about 5 miles from there and that’s a must see site. You can do the museum and North Berwick Law and drop down for a cuppa and some chips!

Arthur’s Seat. The problem here is that you are operating in the Queen’s garden and require permission. It’s not hard to get but operations without permission are invalid. There’s a few in the database I’m sure aren’t kosher at all. It’s not hard to get up. Long time since I did it and I wasn’t fit then but my handicapped daughter managed to walk to the top so it’s not a challenge at all. It’s SO busy on top (over 100 people when I was there) you’ll not be doing HF. If you can’t raise anyone on 2mFM try 145.800AM. Try to arrange your visit so you call on .800 when the ISS is active. That way you can have FM and AM contacts at the same time!

Dirrington Great Law: A lovely wee gem. All covered in heather at the top with a decaying trig point. It sticks out from the gentle rolling land wonderfully. Easy walk up. No problems parking either.

Spartleton: Not done this one yet but it doesn’t look difficult. Not too sure on parking for it.

Allermuir Hill: A proper climb this one. Not difficult but a bit wet in places. From the top the views are good. Loads of space for HF and similar VHF opportunities to Arthur’s Seat. As it is in the Pentlands it is always busy but very nice all the same.

Meikle Says Law: Not hard at all. Maybe a longer walk but less steep than the others, especially if you follow the tracks to the summit. Brian found a 3in shell case on this one. Worst part is from the parking space you walk down hill for 200ft before you start the climb. On a good day this would be a cracker. I’ve often thought of bagging this, Spartleton and Dirrington Great Law in the summmer when you’ve time for 3 activations.

I can give you more detailed route info nearer the time, just ask.

Andy
MM0FMF