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DD1LD-first Mountain Goat in German Alps!


#1

Congrats dr Dzianis. You are the first Mountain Goat in the German Alps = High Mountain region of DL. In a great finish with very difficult Summits (Watzmann) you reached the aim of every SOTA-activator. Wish you all the best in the future and be careful in the mountains.
DJ5KZ - RM DL/CG and DL/BG.


#2

In reply to DJ5KZ:
Mountain Goat in DL…! exceptional Dzianis.
Congratulations.

Best 73 from
Alain F6ENO


#3

In reply to F6ENO:

Congratulations Dzianis!

Well done with some difficult summits and
good luck on the next 1000 points !!!

Vy73 de Fritz DL4FDM/HB9CSA

Btw: I still hope for a reunification
of Germany on SOTA someday :wink:


#4

Congratulations Dzianis and I hope to meet you again someday …

73, Miloš S57D


#5

Congratulations Dzianis!

73

Mads
LA1TPA


#6

Congratulations Dzianis for being the first person in DL to get the mountain goat.

Jimmy M(W)3EYP


#7

In reply to DL4FDM:

Btw: I still hope for a reunification
of Germany on SOTA someday :wink:

Everybody hope so,with world SOTA new rules

73 Alain


#8

Thanks to all of you for congratulations!!! Although I’m NOT really interested in SOTA points but maybe in 100% alpine ones…

I also would like to thank all the chasers bestowing me with short but nice CW pile-ups I always enjoy so much and even whilst freezing my fingers off on my winter and high alpine activations! I hope you have your fun, too!

@DJ5KZ. Thank you dear Dago! I hope, you will follow me soon!

@DL4FDM. Dear Fritz, as I already told you, I do not see any possibility for any DM&DL reunification due to the current pathetic state of the SOTA program/rules allowing a unification of the LA&DL associations rather than DM&DL. And, honestly speaking, NOW I still do not see any reason for that reunification, because the both associations are too different having “extremely” non-equivalent score systems…

@F6ENO. Dear Alain, while there’s life, there’s hope… :slight_smile:

Tnx agn es 73 de Dzianis DD1LD


#9

In reply to DD1LD:

Dzianis, perhaps I am a little slow on a cold Monday morning, but I totally fail to see how the “current pathetic state of the SOTA program/rules” prevents a unification of the DM and DL Associations. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain this to me?

73

Brian G8ADD


#10

In reply to G8ADD:

Dear Brian, doing some more SOTA activations in the fresh air stimulates brainstorming processes…

Headword: Different Score Systems

73 Dzianis


#11

Dear friends,

When I discover the SOTA program I really was excited in that idea to do radioamateur in an another way. As I am sport man (my job), the idea to walk, to climb, to sweat, to go peaks and then contact some people over there, was very fantastic for me. So I decide to buy an FT-817nd to realise this dream. Some friends help me in that way (F5NEP, F6ENO and other also).
But I realised very quickly that there were no comparaisons possible between countries ! there are different scales point for each country ! and in that way, I agree with Dzianis. He is absolutly right. There are so many differences between a DM and DL program.
As I lived in the sport world, I have some troubles to understand that ! May be I am not normal at all !
In athletism, and specially in “110m hurdles”, there are 8 persons from different countries in the starting blocs. They all have to jump the same number of hurdles. Hurdles mesure is the same for all ! The distance is also the same !
Today in the SOTA program, it is different :
Corridor n°1 : 110 m – 10 hurdles – 110 cm high hurdle ( french guy)
Corridor n°2 : 110 m – 9 hurdles – 100 cm high (another country guy)
Corridor n°3 : 90 m – 5 hurdles – 80 cm (another country guy)
Ect…

This is a metaphore that really explain the state of SOTA nowaday : you can substitute hurdles by scale point or substitute high of hurdles by proeminency of the peak.

I always was very surprised to see that is was possible to make an european classification in the database. It should be not possible cause it means nothing. Only a national classification speaks about the real investissement of each Ham. The diplome scale is the same for everybody ! it should be different for each country !
Anyway, I enjoy myself to walk and respond to all ham chaser, that is funny. But the program will get down slowly if nothing change. This english idea to create SOTA program was fantastic and I really thank those persons who had done it. But now, SOTA has to progress with the arriving of new countries. I should be nice idea the get an european SOTA or world SOTA program as the IOTA program but to reach this goal, it needs to open eyes to the world !
Best regards to all, and hope to qso soon

Best 73
Bob

PS : sorry for my basic english,


#12

“I always was very surprised to see that is was possible to make an european classification in the database”.

I don’t think this is the case. Please show me what you mean.

There are many parameters that make differences. Ease (or otherwise) of access by high altitude roads, summits you can drive close to, different geology in different associations etc. A scoring system based on altitude, or a scoring system based purely on prominence takes no account of these factors when it is applied across different regional areas.

Personally, it doesn’t bother me if somebody else somewhere else in the world can get 1000 points easier than I can. I just enjoy climbing the hills and mountains, and operating the radio. I had a wonderful day on Saturday, a long circular walk in the Welsh mountains with two big climbs in the route. I was exhausted at the end! That got me 14 points, but if someone elsewhere got 20 points by driving up to towers and walking across the car parks to set up, that does not spoil the enjoyment of my own walk at all.

Tom M1EYP


#13

In reply to M1EYP:

Tom

I think Bob means that the database will show an “all associations” list.

73

Richard
G3CWI


#14

In reply to F5HTR:

Bob, your English is far superior to my French!

I agree that the points system that we have has its irrational side, but we are not dealing with a field or track sport where everything can be precisely measured. Consider that we have summits where you can drive to within a short distance of the highest point, and other summits that give you a 40+ kilometer round walk through wild and pathless country, summits with such a gentle slope that you would hardly notice it and other summits that you need the skills and equipment of a rock climber to reach…and all these summits could be about the same height. Add to this that some summits are in the frozen north and some are in hot countries, and indeed some are in countries that are poorly mapped and need research before you attempt to even reach them. You see the differences between DL and DM, but do you see the vast difference in morphology that justifies this? Another consideration is that in field or track sports you can be sure that the sportsmen will be unusually fit, whereas in SOTA even a very unfit or handicapped person would be able to participate to some extent by careful selection of summits. I suggest that it would be impossible to devise a scoring system with the precision that you look for which will satisfy all these features. If you don’t believe me, just try to come up with a better system yourself, who knows, you may succeed where others have failed! You will need a system that includes in the score the height of the ascent, the morphology, the skill needed for the ascent, the climate differences between equatorial deserts and polar ice, seasonal variations… and so on, all reduced by simple and easily understood means to a single numerical value that makes it possible to compare any two ascents anywhere in the world.

Not an easy task.

73

Brian G8ADD


#15

In reply to M1EYP:

Tom, Brian, you particularly contradict yourself. As you already mentioned, SOTA doesn’t go about points only but why have you deleted so many DM summits what finally resulted in a significant drop of SOTA activities in DM? Just to prevent that DM guys were gathering more points than others? What did you get? A significant reduction of the SOTA activities in DM, the loss of some very active and passionate activators, and dominating the score table “All associations” by OK guys now. Anyway, probably there were another smooth solutions possible but you never asked.

The problem is that you have never heard that other people/associations want to have… There are enough people I met who are interested in an appropriate estimation of their efforts on the international scene and not only in the local association. A simple remove of “All associations” in the table doesn’t solve the problem at all.

But let’s go back to the scoring system. Yes, probably there will be no ideal scoring system, but there are good alternatives for the current one (which isn’t even efficient for the Alps). The SOTA will never become really international if you insist on your solutions made only from your own point of view. I personally observe some kind of stagnation in SOTA… Pitty!

73 Dzianis


#16

In reply to DD1LD:

In reply to M1EYP:

Tom, Brian, you particularly contradict yourself. As you already
mentioned, SOTA doesn’t go about points only but why have you deleted
so many DM summits what finally resulted in a significant drop of SOTA
activities in DM? Just to prevent that DM guys were gathering more
points than others? What did you get? A significant reduction of the
SOTA activities in DM, the loss of some very active and passionate
activators, and dominating the score table “All
associations” by OK guys now. Anyway, probably there were another
smooth solutions possible but you never asked.

Dzianis, I find it very hurtful that you would suggest that the MT had such a bad motive for what happened. The truth is very well known, SOTA defines summits by their prominence, it became apparent that some DM summits did not satisfy that definition, indeed some summits had barely any prominence at all. In order to soften the blow of losing popular summits we permitted a reduction of prominence from 150 metres to 100 metres, and indeed by the use of newly available technology we were able to suggest quite a few new summits which had been overlooked when the original summit list was drawn up. I know that the insistance on observing the rules annoyed some people, the fact that you are prepared to go over this all over again shows that it still annoys you, but are you really suggesting that a rule that applies to the rest of the SOTA Associations should not apply to DM? Do you realise how much resentment there was in other Associations when it was realised that a country that was by no means short of hills was including hills that were well outside the rules? Yes, I know that some in your country turned their backs on SOTA, and this was extremely regrettable, but to suggest that the MT fiddled with the rules to put German activators at a disadvantage really is unacceptably rude.

As moderator I really must insist that you be more careful about how you compose your words and avoid giving gratuitious offense, you have stepped outside the acceptable use policy of this reflector and I will not permit this to happen again.

73

Brian G8ADD


#17

In reply to G8ADD:

:-x

…overshadowed by anxiety and fear…


#18

Dear Tom Brian and other responsibles of SOTA program,

I read your responses several time to be sure I understand well what I am reading ! I would not interprate in the bad way your meaning. I would like to speak english in order to explain better and better !
So, Brian, your argument about 40 km to reach a point is not available at all ! This is an exception, in France as you know we have the Mont Blanc at 4810 mtr ! another exception ! even if it is easier to walk 40 km ! all in all that’s the same. You can’t construct rules from exception !
If it was the case, we should authorise to kenyan team to swim at the 100 mtr with a motor because physiologically he has not good density to swimm very quickly ! ! All countries have their own exception !
Of course it is not possible to take in charge all morphology of each summit. Of course it will be difficult to find a summit in nederland ! But we have possibilities to reduce those differences ! the reduction is to think another scale and an unique scale. French alps, German alps or Italian alps do not belong to their inhabitants, everybody can climb everywhere nowadays.
For example why the scale is limited at 10 ? and between 2 and 4 there is 3 and between 8 and 10 there is 9 ! Some countries gets 10 points over 1000 mtr, in France you need to go at 2500 ! Sincerely it is easier to go at 1000 than 2500 mtr ! Even if you walk 20 km before ! I regulary walk between 15 and 20 km to reach a peak. I used to run semi-marathon, I know what It means walking with different slope.
An idea : It will be nice to get :

  • 1 point to 500 m
  • 2 points between 500-750m
  • 3 points between 750-1000 m
  • 4 points between 1000-1250 m
  • 5 points between 1250-1500 m
  • 6 points between 1500-1750 m
  • 7 points between 1750-2000
  • 8 points : 2000-2250 m
  • 9 points : 2250 -2500
  • 11 points 2500 – 2750
  • 12 points : 2750 -3000,
  • 13 points : 3000 3250
  • 14 points : 3250-3500
  • 15 points : 3500-3750
  • 16 points : 3750 – 4000
  • 17 points : 4000-4250
  • 18 points : 4250 – 4500
  • 19 points : 4500 - 4750
  • 20 points : 4750-5000 m

Those summits over 2500 m ! they exist for sure ! why do not considere them ! Why 3500 m doesn’t give much more points than 2500, or 1000 m and some countries?
Also, the bonus point is not appropriate when you go at 3500 m ! it is winter 8 months a year !

Anyway, I thing it is good to have this debat, cause there is no other place to have it ! It is important that everybody could say what he had to say. It is important to listen them also !
I would say to the dirigeant do not afraid to progress ! At the begenning SOTA was english, and now european, some people climb higher now ! some people try to perform more and more ! This is the fruit of your genial idea !

Best regards to all !

Bob


#19

In reply to F5HTR:

Hi, Bob, what I was trying to do was to show how much variation has to be covered in one set of rules.

You should remember that the MT did not impose the height bands on the French Association: when the Association was being formed, those height bands were put to the MT as being what the French Association wanted, and the MT accepted them. I am sure that if the French Association decided that the height bands needed to be changed then the MT would listen with sympathy.

I can see what you are trying to do with your suggested scoring system. My personal opinion is that there are too many bands, but in addition I see two difficulties. Firstly you are thinking only of Europe, and you stop at 5,000 metres. I suggest that any universal scheme should be world-wide, it should include the highest summits in the Himalaya. The second fault is that a universal scheme should have a step change at the altitude where breathing becomes a problem; either the climber carries oxygen and therefore has to overcome a weight penalty, or he goes without oxygen and has breathing difficulties. Perhaps a bonus is appropriate at this height?

With regard to the winter bonus, I think you would find a considerable increase in difficulty in mid winter in the high alps! However, again thinking beyond the boundary of Europe, the MT is prepared to accept a summer bonus in desert countries - in a country like Australia there are mountains that get winter snow and rate a winter bonus, but elsewhere on the continent where it is hot and arid the winter might be the best time to climb and a summer bonus might be more appropriate. These are problems for the future.

Thank you for you good wishes and for thinking constructively about the problems.

73

Brian G8ADD


#20

In reply to G8ADD:

Truth is that a valid ARM existed for both DL and DM which stated that exceptions can be made from the prominence rule. This rule and the whole ARM had been long ago authorized by MT but then DL & DM needed to change this valid ARM simply because the MT felt like it and where on top of it presented as cheaters. While the rule is problematic, it was not unknown to the MT as pointed out many times by Mike.

So please use the word truth carefully - these hills were not outside the rules as you say, but at a later point the MT did not like the rules and the hills included. And yes we can go all over it again. A first step would be to republish the old ARM for everybody to check himself.

Brian, why not read again some of the silly mails sent by the MT and rethink your statements? As a hint: look at the onces on which maps to use :wink:
And yes: silly is the appropriate word!

Btw: congrats Dzianis to all these activations - back to original topic :wink:

Regards,

Gerd.