UK Marilyn Changes

For those of your who are members of “The Relative Hills of Britain” Pedantic group (pedantic@groups.io | Home), you maybe aware that that the next book due to be published by “Pedantic Press” will be “The Revised Relative Hills of Britain: The Marilyns” book and this book will become available from around mid June.

The founder of the British Marilyns Alan Dawson has posted a thread about this on the Pedantic group which you can find here (Log In), but I have included screenshots of Alan Dawson’s post on this thread so that those you you who aren’t members of the Pedantic group are able to see.

From reading Alan Dawson’s post, I can see that Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 is now longer a Marilyn. Due to this, I announcing that I will be submitting the England (G) SOTA updates in March 2026 to coincide with SOTA’s 24th Anniversary that falls on 2nd March 2026. However, Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 will remain a valid SOTA summit until 31st May 2026. As the G/SE regional notes currently mention Cliffe Hill G/SE-014, I will need to correspond in due course with the G/SE Region Manager David @G3RDQ with regards to this in due course. In my personal opinion, I am pleased that Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 is no longer a Marilyn and that by June 2026 will no longer be a SOTA summit because the actual summit of this is on a golf course when the last time I activated this SOTA summit which was nearly 7 years ago now with my dad Tom @M1EYP, we met one golfer who was very friendly, but we also met a golfer who was very unfriendly.

Another change is that Mynydd Machen GW/SW-030 has now been replaced by Mynydd y Grug. This means that Mynydd Machen GW/SW-030 will get removed from the SOTA programme in due course and Mynydd y Grug will get added to the SOTA programme in due course also and will probably get SOTA reference GW/SW-042. I will leave it to the GW - Association Manager Roger @MW0IDX to announce when he’ll be doing the Wales (GW) SOTA updates and also as to when the GW SOTA summits change take effect, however I believe that Roger MW0IDX is planning for the GW SOTA summit change to happen at a similar time to when Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 gets removed from the SOTA programme. This GW SOTA change is actually very similar to when Hensbarrow Beacon G/DC-004 got replaced by Hensbarrow Downs G/DC-008 which was the 2nd SOTA summit to be added to the G (England) Association after me and my dad Tom M1EYP activated all the England (G) SOTA summits initially so we were 3rd time lucky activating this entire association. For the Wales (GW) Association, one new Marilyn was added to GW (Wales) Association after the activated all the Wales (GW) Association initially and we since activated the additional GW SOTA summit. Now that Mynydd y Grug will be added to the GW (Wales) Association, it’s only fair that eventually me and my dad Tom M1EYP will be 3rd time lucky activating the entire GW (Wales) Association, like we were activating the G (England) Association and given that Mynydd y Grug is very similar to Hensbarrow Downs G/DC-008 is just a coincidence also. What is frustrating though is that Mynydd y Grug isn’t daytrippable for me and my dad Tom M1EYP and therefore we will need to do a 1 or 2 night stay somewhere for just one unique.

In addition to the above Guir-bheinn GM/SI-142 hasn’t been a Marilyn since May 2021 and therefore will need to be removed from the SOTA programme at some-point. I am sure that in due course that the GM - Association Manager Andy @MM0FMF will do a Scotland (GM) Association update and add a valid to date for Guir-bheinn GM/SI-142.

All changes mentioned above have been updated on the Hill Bagging website already (https://www.hill-bagging.co.uk/).

Jimmy M0HGY
G - Association Manager

6 Likes

Good riddance to Cliffe Hill - rubbish summit. Though with the G AM allowing such a lenient notice period, I suspect it’s inevitable that I’ll activate it at least once more despite my dislike of it!

Hope Alan Dawson finds reason to remove Crowborough’s Marilyn status too! :wink:

Shame about Mynydd Machen, which I’ve always enjoyed. Though it is reported that its successor Mynydd y Grug is “a pleasant walk” so I’ll look forward to that trip. As Jimmy says, it’s slightly beyond daytrip range, but that’s cool as it will mean at least one more day in that area. There’s lots of very easy to access summits round there, so I sense an opportunity to bag a large number of activations in just 2-3 days.

Looking forward to the new edition of the RHB book. Should be an enjoyable coffee table read.

3 Likes

It looks a bit a long trudge TBH. Still I should plan to do it and delete it soon.

3 Likes

Caroline and I activated it yesterday evening and really enjoyed it. We found a nice activation spot at TQ 43465 10794 which is just outside the boundary of the golf course on the 150m contour. Caroline used a fencepost for her antenna support. I found plenty of space to the north east of the track for my linked dipole, with just a small contrivance to avoid the back guy encroaching on the track which was used by a few cyclists while we were there.

An easy and pleasant activation. A pity it has to go.

Martyn M1MAJ

6 Likes

It’s not that bad actually, though the summit might be considered unremarkable. At least on island summits, there’s usually a pleasant sea view. Thankfully I have it as a Complete, all done and dusted back in 2013. I shall always remember this one as I almost trod on an Adder on the way off the hill. :hushed:

As for Mynydd Machen, I’m still waiting for a Complete 17 years since activating the hill. I will be scanning the alerts very carefully from now on… :grinning:

6 Likes

Good excuse for me to have a trip into South Wales once it is officially added. So I can get back to my 100% activated in GW and G.

3 Likes

I’ve previously had a glancing blow with marilyns and the defintions etc. but this post has been gnawing at me to set off on a nerdy trek through the nitpick jungle of hill categorisation, where every bump is measured with surgical precision and every peak’s rank debated like a grammar spod arguing over the Oxford comma … or something like that.

I’ve seen others comment over why some of the Scottish Islands summits aren’t SI, like Windy Hill, GM/SS-265, Ailsa Craig, GM/SS-246, and others, and I’ve wondered why Morrone, GM/CS-060, is CS, when Creag Bhalg, GM/ES-046, is ES. So I decided to look up the story in the GM association manual. It’s in here that I see the RHB regions are used to assign hills to the SOTA regions, where one SOTA region is multiple RHB region.

Continuing this journey I venture over to Hill Bagging website, which houses the data on behalf of the RHS. I noticed there is Topographical areas as well as RHB regions, and I wondered if these would filter the hills in a different way such that all Island summits would be SI, and how that would change the distribution of summits across the GM regions. Given quite the range from ES have 87 and WS having 347.

These are listed in the table below. I have actually made up Scottish Borders as these get put in the Cheviot hills (in a strange fashion imo) but I guess they have country filters elsewhere. I also added the -X to the Area code so you can distinguish between the mutiple sub areas with a unique code. e.g. Western Highlands.

I think these areas split up the country in a nice fashion, and so I went about assigned them to SOTA regions to see what it might look like. This is where a table of data starts to get tricky and so I wanted an interactive map…a voila. This allows me to set what SOTA region each Topographical area could be and then see it on a map plus some distributions of the summits.

I think the area names make it quite obvious as to which regions they should be, but of course this is always debatable. My split assigns them like this:

Area name Area New GM region
Arran, Bute and nearby IA SI
Barra and nearby IB SI
Central Highlands: North HC-N CS
Central Highlands: South HC-S CS
Central Scotland SC CS
Coastal Islands IC SI
Eastern highlands: North HE-N ES
Eastern highlands: South HE-S ES
Extremity Islands IX SI
Islay, Jura and nearby IJ SI
Lewis-Harris and Nearby LH SI
Monadhliath HM CS
Mull, Tiree and nearby IM SI
Northern Highlands HN NS
Orkney Islands IO SI
Rum, Eigg and nearby IR SI
Scottish Borders SB SS
Shetland Islands IS SI
Skye and nearby SK SI
Southern Highlands: East HS-E SS
Southern Highlands: West HS-W SS
Southern Scotland: East SS-E SS
Southern Scotland: West SS-W SS
Uists and nearby IU SI
Western Highlands: Ardnamuchan HW-A WS
Western Highlands: Central HW-C WS
Western Highlands: North HW-N NS
Western Highlands: South HW-S WS

Covering this area - note there is overlap due to my simple way of drawing the polygons.

With the shuffling of summits around the distribution across the regions is a little more similar, with WS getting the biggest hair cut with CS picking up many of them, even whilst giving away Cairngorm summits to ES (hear! hear!). And every island summit is infact SI.

Region Original New
WS 347 198
SS 283 258
SI 222 227
NS 155 194
CS 124 219
ES 87 122

With all that we end up with 208 summits that have moved region and absolutely messed up the numbering from tallest to smallest.

The list of 208 summits if you're interested
Number SOTA Ref Hill name Area name Original SOTA region Assigned Region
1 GM/CS-003 Beinn a’ Ghlo - Carn nan Gabhar Eastern highlands: South CS ES
2 GM/CS-009 Beinn a’ Ghlo - Braigh Coire Chruinn-bhalgain Eastern highlands: South CS ES
3 GM/CS-011 Glas Tulaichean Eastern highlands: South CS ES
4 GM/CS-014 Beinn Iutharn Mhor Eastern highlands: South CS ES
5 GM/CS-020 Carn an Righ Eastern highlands: South CS ES
6 GM/CS-023 Beinn Dearg Eastern highlands: South CS ES
7 GM/CS-024 An Sgarsoch Eastern highlands: South CS ES
8 GM/CS-027 Carn an Fhidhleir [Carn Ealar] Eastern highlands: South CS ES
9 GM/CS-029 Beinn a’ Ghlo - Carn Liath Eastern highlands: South CS ES
10 GM/CS-030 Carn a’ Gheoidh Eastern highlands: South CS ES
11 GM/CS-031 Carn a’ Chlamain Eastern highlands: South CS ES
12 GM/CS-035 Meall Chuaich Eastern highlands: South CS ES
13 GM/CS-036 Carn Bhac Eastern highlands: South CS ES
14 GM/CS-038 An Socach Eastern highlands: South CS ES
15 GM/CS-039 Carn na Caim Eastern highlands: South CS ES
16 GM/CS-045 Beinn Bhreac Eastern highlands: South CS ES
17 GM/CS-046 Leathad an Taobhain Eastern highlands: South CS ES
18 GM/CS-049 Ben Vuirich Eastern highlands: South CS ES
19 GM/CS-051 Beinn Mheadhonach Eastern highlands: South CS ES
20 GM/CS-057 A’ Chaoirnich [Maol Creag an Loch] Eastern highlands: South CS ES
21 GM/CS-060 Morrone Eastern highlands: South CS ES
22 GM/CS-061 Carn Dearg Mor Eastern highlands: South CS ES
23 GM/CS-065 Ben Vrackie Eastern highlands: South CS ES
24 GM/CS-069 An Dun Eastern highlands: South CS ES
25 GM/CS-077 Ben Gulabin Eastern highlands: South CS ES
26 GM/CS-084 Meallach Mhor Eastern highlands: South CS ES
27 GM/CS-092 Creag Ruadh Eastern highlands: South CS ES
28 GM/CS-094 Blath Bhalg Eastern highlands: South CS ES
29 GM/CS-102 Creag nam Mial Eastern highlands: South CS ES
30 GM/CS-108 Deuchary Hill Eastern highlands: South CS ES
31 GM/CS-116 Hill of Persie Eastern highlands: South CS ES
32 GM/CS-122 Newtyle Hill Eastern highlands: South CS ES
33 GM/NS-151 Mount Eagle Western Highlands: Central NS WS
34 GM/SS-059 Ben Cleuch Central Scotland SS CS
35 GM/SS-126 Earl’s Seat Central Scotland SS CS
36 GM/SS-129 Meikle Bin Central Scotland SS CS
37 GM/SS-154 West Lomond Central Scotland SS CS
38 GM/SS-163 Stronend Central Scotland SS CS
39 GM/SS-169 Innerdouny Hill Central Scotland SS CS
40 GM/SS-175 Carleatheran Central Scotland SS CS
41 GM/SS-176 Steele’s Knowe Central Scotland SS CS
42 GM/SS-187 Bishop Hill Central Scotland SS CS
43 GM/SS-190 Lendrick Hill Central Scotland SS CS
44 GM/SS-192 Craigowl Hill Eastern highlands: South SS ES
45 GM/SS-198 East Lomond Central Scotland SS CS
46 GM/SS-216 Dumyat Central Scotland SS CS
47 GM/SS-222 Duncolm Central Scotland SS CS
48 GM/SS-234 Dumglow Central Scotland SS CS
49 GM/SS-235 King’s Seat Eastern highlands: South SS ES
50 GM/SS-242 Benarty Hill Central Scotland SS CS
51 GM/SS-246 Ailsa Craig Arran, Bute and nearby SS SI
52 GM/SS-259 Largo Law Central Scotland SS CS
53 GM/SS-262 Norman’s Law Central Scotland SS CS
54 GM/SS-265 Windy Hill Arran, Bute and nearby SS SI
55 GM/SS-271 Turin Hill Eastern highlands: South SS ES
56 GM/SS-275 Cairnie Hill Central Scotland SS CS
57 GM/SS-277 Mount Hill Central Scotland SS CS
58 GM/SS-279 Carn Breugach Coastal Islands SS SI
59 GM/WS-001 Ben Nevis [Beinn Nibheis] Central Highlands: North WS CS
60 GM/WS-002 Aonach Beag Central Highlands: North WS CS
61 GM/WS-003 Carn Mor Dearg Central Highlands: North WS CS
62 GM/WS-005 Stob Choire Claurigh Central Highlands: North WS CS
63 GM/WS-007 Bidean nam Bian Central Highlands: South WS CS
64 GM/WS-009 Ben Alder Central Highlands: North WS CS
65 GM/WS-010 Geal-charn Central Highlands: North WS CS
66 GM/WS-011 Binnein Mor Central Highlands: North WS CS
67 GM/WS-013 Ben Cruachan Central Highlands: South WS CS
68 GM/WS-015 Stob Coire Easain Central Highlands: North WS CS
69 GM/WS-017 Meall a’ Bhuiridh Central Highlands: South WS CS
70 GM/WS-019 Creise Central Highlands: South WS CS
71 GM/WS-020 Sgurr a’ Mhaim Central Highlands: North WS CS
72 GM/WS-021 Sgurr Choinnich Mor Central Highlands: North WS CS
73 GM/WS-022 Stob Ghabhar Central Highlands: South WS CS
74 GM/WS-023 Beinn a’ Chlachair Central Highlands: North WS CS
75 GM/WS-025 Ben Starav Central Highlands: South WS CS
76 GM/WS-028 Liathach - Spidean a’ Choire Leith Western Highlands: North WS NS
77 GM/WS-031 Geal Charn Central Highlands: North WS CS
78 GM/WS-032 Chno Dearg Central Highlands: North WS CS
79 GM/WS-033 Stob Coir’ an Albannaich Central Highlands: South WS CS
80 GM/WS-037 Am Bodach Central Highlands: North WS CS
81 GM/WS-038 Carn Dearg Central Highlands: North WS CS
82 GM/WS-042 Beinn a’ Bheithir - Sgorr Dhearg Central Highlands: South WS CS
83 GM/WS-043 Liathach - Mullach an Rathain Western Highlands: North WS NS
84 GM/WS-044 Buachaille Etive Mor - Stob Dearg Central Highlands: South WS CS
85 GM/WS-047 Beinn Bheoil Central Highlands: North WS CS
86 GM/WS-049 Sgurr Eilde Mor Central Highlands: North WS CS
87 GM/WS-052 Beinn Eighe - Ruadh-stac Mor Western Highlands: North WS NS
88 GM/WS-057 Beinn a’ Bheithir - Sgorr Dhonuill Central Highlands: South WS CS
89 GM/WS-058 Stob Ban Central Highlands: North WS CS
90 GM/WS-059 Glas Bheinn Mhor Central Highlands: South WS CS
91 GM/WS-061 Sgurr na h-Ulaidh [Sgor na h-Ulaidh] Central Highlands: South WS CS
92 GM/WS-063 Beinn Eighe - Spidean Coire nan Clach Western Highlands: North WS NS
93 GM/WS-065 Beinn Eunaich Central Highlands: South WS CS
94 GM/WS-068 Beinn Alligin - Sgurr Mor Western Highlands: North WS NS
95 GM/WS-069 An Gearanach Central Highlands: North WS CS
96 GM/WS-071 Beinn a’ Chochuill Central Highlands: South WS CS
97 GM/WS-072 Stob Ban Central Highlands: North WS CS
98 GM/WS-074 Aonach Eagach - Sgorr nam Fiannaidh Central Highlands: North WS CS
99 GM/WS-076 Beinn nan Aighenan Central Highlands: South WS CS
100 GM/WS-077 Sgorr Ruadh Western Highlands: North WS NS
101 GM/WS-078 Beinn Fhionnlaidh Central Highlands: South WS CS
102 GM/WS-079 Buachaille Etive Beag - Stob Dubh Central Highlands: South WS CS
103 GM/WS-081 Sgor Gaibhre Central Highlands: North WS CS
104 GM/WS-083 Stob a’ Choire Odhair Central Highlands: South WS CS
105 GM/WS-087 Binnein Beag Central Highlands: North WS CS
106 GM/WS-088 Carn Dearg Central Highlands: North WS CS
107 GM/WS-090 Beinn Sgulaird Central Highlands: South WS CS
108 GM/WS-091 Beinn na Lap Central Highlands: North WS CS
109 GM/WS-093 Maol Chean-dearg Western Highlands: North WS NS
110 GM/WS-094 Meall nan Eun Central Highlands: South WS CS
111 GM/WS-096 Buachaille Etive Beag - Stob Coire Raineach Central Highlands: South WS CS
112 GM/WS-097 Beinn Liath Mhor Western Highlands: North WS NS
113 GM/WS-098 Beinn Alligin - Tom na Gruagaich Western Highlands: North WS NS
114 GM/WS-104 Beinn Dearg Western Highlands: North WS NS
115 GM/WS-106 The Fara Central Highlands: North WS CS
116 GM/WS-108 Beinn Maol Chaluim Central Highlands: South WS CS
117 GM/WS-109 Fuar Tholl Western Highlands: North WS NS
118 GM/WS-110 Leum Uilleim Central Highlands: North WS CS
119 GM/WS-111 Beinn Damh Western Highlands: North WS NS
120 GM/WS-115 Beinn a’ Bhuiridh Central Highlands: South WS CS
121 GM/WS-116 Ruadh-stac Beag Western Highlands: North WS NS
122 GM/WS-117 Beinn Bhan Western Highlands: North WS NS
123 GM/WS-119 An Ruadh-Stac Western Highlands: North WS NS
124 GM/WS-123 Meall a’ Ghiuthais [Meall a’ Ghiubhais] Western Highlands: North WS NS
125 GM/WS-126 Stob Dubh Central Highlands: South WS CS
126 GM/WS-130 Fraochaidh Central Highlands: South WS CS
127 GM/WS-133 Baosbheinn Western Highlands: North WS NS
128 GM/WS-135 Sgorr nan Lochan Uaine Western Highlands: North WS NS
129 GM/WS-136 Beinn Pharlagain - Meall na Meoig [Meall na Meoig] Central Highlands: North WS CS
130 GM/WS-138 Garbh Bheinn Central Highlands: North WS CS
131 GM/WS-140 Beinn Mhic Chasgaig Central Highlands: South WS CS
132 GM/WS-146 Beinn a’ Chrulaiste Central Highlands: North WS CS
133 GM/WS-147 Cruach Innse Central Highlands: North WS CS
134 GM/WS-149 Beinn an Eoin Western Highlands: North WS NS
135 GM/WS-155 Beinn Trilleachan Central Highlands: South WS CS
136 GM/WS-156 Beinn Udlaidh Central Highlands: South WS CS
137 GM/WS-165 Creach Bheinn Central Highlands: South WS CS
138 GM/WS-166 Sgurr Innse Central Highlands: North WS CS
139 GM/WS-169 Beinn Bhreac-liath Central Highlands: South WS CS
140 GM/WS-172 Beinn Mhic Mhonaidh Central Highlands: South WS CS
141 GM/WS-173 Mam na Gualainn Central Highlands: North WS CS
142 GM/WS-177 Glas Bheinn Central Highlands: North WS CS
143 GM/WS-178 Sgurr a’ Chaorachain Western Highlands: North WS NS
144 GM/WS-184 Sgurr Dubh Western Highlands: North WS NS
145 GM/WS-189 Meall Lighiche Central Highlands: South WS CS
146 GM/WS-198 Binnein Shuas Central Highlands: North WS CS
147 GM/WS-200 Pap of Glencoe Central Highlands: North WS CS
148 GM/WS-201 Stob na Cruaiche Central Highlands: North WS CS
149 GM/WS-202 Cnap Cruinn Central Highlands: North WS CS
150 GM/WS-204 Beinn na h-Eaglaise Western Highlands: North WS NS
151 GM/WS-208 Sgurr a’ Gharaidh Western Highlands: North WS NS
152 GM/WS-211 Mam Hael [Beinn Bhreac] Central Highlands: South WS CS
153 GM/WS-212 Beinn a’ Chearcaill Western Highlands: North WS NS
154 GM/WS-216 Beinn Mheadhonach Central Highlands: South WS CS
155 GM/WS-219 Beinn nan Lus Central Highlands: South WS CS
156 GM/WS-222 Meall Garbh Central Highlands: South WS CS
157 GM/WS-227 Beinn Molurgainn Central Highlands: South WS CS
158 GM/WS-233 Carn Breac Western Highlands: North WS NS
159 GM/WS-234 Meall Mor Central Highlands: South WS CS
160 GM/WS-235 Beinn Suidhe Central Highlands: South WS CS
161 GM/WS-238 An Ruadh-mheallan Western Highlands: North WS NS
162 GM/WS-239 Binnein Shios Central Highlands: North WS CS
163 GM/WS-242 Meall Tairbh Central Highlands: South WS CS
164 GM/WS-243 Sgorr a’ Choise Central Highlands: South WS CS
165 GM/WS-247 Meall nan Eagan Central Highlands: North WS CS
166 GM/WS-252 Beinn Donachain Central Highlands: South WS CS
167 GM/WS-253 Beinn na Cloiche Central Highlands: North WS CS
168 GM/WS-256 Beinn na Sroine Central Highlands: South WS CS
169 GM/WS-259 Beinn a’ Chlachain [Meall an Doireachain] Western Highlands: North WS NS
170 GM/WS-260 Beinn na Feusaige Western Highlands: North WS NS
171 GM/WS-261 Tom Meadhoin Central Highlands: North WS CS
172 GM/WS-262 Creag Ghuanach Central Highlands: North WS CS
173 GM/WS-263 Beinn na Gucaig Central Highlands: North WS CS
174 GM/WS-271 Cruban Beag Central Highlands: North WS CS
175 GM/WS-272 Beinn Mheadhonach Central Highlands: South WS CS
176 GM/WS-277 Creag na Doire Duibhe Central Highlands: North WS CS
177 GM/WS-279 Beinn a’ Chuirn Central Highlands: South WS CS
178 GM/WS-280 Doire Ban Central Highlands: North WS CS
179 GM/WS-282 Beinn Duirinnis Central Highlands: South WS CS
180 GM/WS-284 An Grianan Central Highlands: South WS CS
181 GM/WS-285 Beinn Churalain Central Highlands: South WS CS
182 GM/WS-286 Leathad Mor Central Highlands: South WS CS
183 GM/WS-292 Ben Shieldaig Western Highlands: North WS NS
184 GM/WS-293 Bidean Bad na h-Iolaire [Bidein Bad na h-Iolaire] Central Highlands: North WS CS
185 GM/WS-296 Meall Luidh Mor Central Highlands: North WS CS
186 GM/WS-297 An Staonach Western Highlands: North WS NS
187 GM/WS-300 Sron Smeur Central Highlands: North WS CS
188 GM/WS-303 Glas Bheinn Central Highlands: South WS CS
189 GM/WS-305 Meall Mor Central Highlands: South WS CS
190 GM/WS-310 Beinn Donn Central Highlands: South WS CS
191 GM/WS-312 Beinn Sgluich Central Highlands: South WS CS
192 GM/WS-313 Bidein Clann Raonaild Western Highlands: North WS NS
193 GM/WS-321 Seana Mheallan Western Highlands: North WS NS
194 GM/WS-324 Meall an Doirein Western Highlands: North WS NS
195 GM/WS-328 Meall Lochan a’ Chleirich Western Highlands: North WS NS
196 GM/WS-329 Bad a’ Chreamha Western Highlands: North WS NS
197 GM/WS-331 An Sgurr Western Highlands: North WS NS
198 GM/WS-333 Carn Faire nan Con Western Highlands: North WS NS
199 GM/WS-336 Beinn Lora Central Highlands: South WS CS
200 GM/WS-337 An Cuaidh Western Highlands: North WS NS
201 GM/WS-339 Druim na h-Earba Central Highlands: North WS CS
202 GM/WS-340 Beinn a’ Bhaillidh Coastal Islands WS SI
203 GM/WS-341 Ardsheal Hill Central Highlands: South WS CS
204 GM/WS-342 Torr Achilty Western Highlands: North WS NS
205 GM/WS-346 Airds Hill Central Highlands: South WS CS
206 GM/WS-347 Cruachan Charna Coastal Islands WS SI
207 GM/WS-350 Sithean Mor [Sidhean Mor] Western Highlands: North WS NS
208 GM/WS-351 Na Maoilean Central Highlands: South WS CS

Feel free to play around with how you think they should be allocated and you too can waste your evening. I’m not holding my breath for a redistribution of summits anytime soon :sweat_smile:

2 Likes

Ah, a corollary to the story of the formulation changes that created New Coke in the 80s. We all know how well that went.

1 Like

If you do that we lose the Pi badge for GM/WS-314.
Andy
MM7MOX

1 Like

I think our colleagues down in Englandshire may be upset to see the SB summits taken from them too. Though maybe the loss of Sighty Crag won’t be a deal breaker;-)

3 Likes

The thing that puzzles me is why the RHB people decided to go their own way rather than follow the fairly logical Regions of Scottish mountains long established by the Scottish Mountaineering Club and covered by an excellent series of handbooks. I mean, when it has already been done so thoroughly, why do it all again? That said, the RHB regions have worked well enough for us since the establishment of SOTA so I see no value in further efforts to juggle boundaries.

4 Likes

Proposals like this more normally appear in the pre-bonus doldrums of November - or at the beginning of April…

There is a very good reason we use an independent definition and allocation from a third party. That reason is exquisitely illustrated by Alex’s proposal above :wink:

5 Likes

I would just like to clarify that all valid England (G) SOTA Summits will remain in England (G) Association and that no changes will be made to England (G) regions either.

Jimmy M0HGY
G - Association Manager

2 Likes

Obviously I knew the answer before I even started doing anything. :man_teacher: However, for completeness, the essential requirement of being technical correct, and to be absolutely precise. My proposal does not change any G summits. My reference to SB is that on RHB they have a topographical area called SE Cheviots which containts summits on both sides of the border. My processing of the data only dealt with whole areas and so it was either in (wrong as has G summits) or out (also wrong as missing GM summits). So I made a new topographical area - confusingly called SB :sweat_smile: - referring to the Scotland side of the border.

I do like the SMC regions as they relate to hill ranges but their website is data poor, or at least on first inspection.

2 Likes

You also knew nobody would read all the proposal in fine detail before commenting too! I fell into TL;DR as I failed to see any immediate benefit to me :wink: However, I am an engineer and therefore somewhat on the spectrum in that things have to be stored and indexed into the correct boxes and stuff has to be done “properly” where properly is generally my definition of properly. So examples of intellectual onanism like this do entertain me. There’s probably an XKCD cartoon that describes this to a tee but I’m not going to look as that will be another lost hour or two :slight_smile:

I was never too bothered that things seem to have been setup incorrectly in my opinion in GM because it was someone else’s scheme and there was no benefit to me to change it. The fact there are 2 island summits that are not in the SI (Scottish Island) region has been used as a useful quiz question many times. Likewise when I started looking at summit positions on the ground vs region allocation I looked at summits like GM/CS-060 and GM/ES-046 and why they were allocated so and noticed that the Geldie Burn, River Dee and Clunie Water rivers made a very obvious geographic separator between the N and E edges of the CS region and ES region. SS seems to go too far North IMHO too.

But as I said, someone else did the splits and changing things offered no obvious benefit to me so why make work. I suppose now I have completed the Southern part of SS, making SS into 2 regions means I’d have finally completed a GM region. That’s a good reason why having ES as 87 summits CS as 124 and WS as 347 is better than having ES as 150 summits and CS bigger and WS smaller. Completing an 84 summit region seems immediately feasible a few weeks after someone starts doing SOTA in the NE of Scotland. It’s the kind of personal challenge many people in associations like GM create because the scoring is relatively low and there are lots of quite strenuous/arduous summits. Activating and then completing 87 ES summits doesn’t seem impossible. There’s little actual benefit is splitting associations into regions other than it helps you know roughly where a summit may physically be located. In simple terms every GM summit just needs a unique ID and everything else is just chrome plating, something shiny for no essential gain.

In conclusion I find these subjects interesting discussion points. No I didn’t expect to see any damn fine reasons why summits should move between regions but the discussions that emerge may give rise to an interesting personal challenge for me and maybe some others to play with.

4 Likes

This one isn’t 100%, but I find myself using it quite often and so remember it:

Of course someone has a made a solution to this problem, which finds this one for me:

If you live in the area, it’s very doable without lots of planning or potential expense…if it’s something you want to achieve. Like you say, the actual numbers of the summits don’t matter. Perhaps they all should be uuids hashed from a combination of summit name, height, coordinates and points, and then we can decode all the information directly from the summit number. Plus then you get to confirm a 36 character string over the air.

Like the GM3VLB Islands award [1] , I did make a cairngorms climbers award (it lacks the silverware but still needs a bit of polish) which tracks who has qualified the most CNP summits [2]. Of course, the GM ES SOTA society’s officially anointed boundaries include these summits, as only befitting for such an empire who respects the people who operated within it. More on this later.

CNP has 89 summits, and could’ve been a region on its own - similar to how England was chopped up. Top ten currently stands as:

Operator Total Summits
MM0YCJ 86
GM4TOE 84
MM0EFI 82
GM7PKT 71
MM0DHY 60
GM0GAV 52
GM5ALX 49
MM0ROV 46
MM0FMF 38
GM4COX 22

  1. Currently a tie so far this year! ↩︎

  2. No-one has them all yet ↩︎

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I do have a good deal of sympathy with these observations. I’ve never understood the huge overlaps in the SS / CS / ES regions, or the two Scottish island summits that don’t qualify for SI.

Similarly, a whole bunch of GW/MW summits seem to lurch right down into SW territory. And NW references in Mid Wales. The boundary between G/CE and WB is rather blurred too.

The sealing factor is that an independent somebody else has already done it all - and given us permission to use that work. And anything that makes less work for MT is to be cherished :wink:

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