UK Marilyn Changes

[M0HGY]

For those of your who are members of “The Relative Hills of Britain” Pedantic group (pedantic@groups.io | Home), you maybe aware that that the next book due to be published by “Pedantic Press” will be “The Revised Relative Hills of Britain: The Marilyns” book and this book will become available from around mid June.

The founder of the British Marilyns Alan Dawson has posted a thread about this on the Pedantic group which you can find here (Log In), but I have included screenshots of Alan Dawson’s post on this thread so that those you you who aren’t members of the Pedantic group are able to see.

From reading Alan Dawson’s post, I can see that Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 is now longer a Marilyn. Due to this, I announcing that I will be submitting the England (G) SOTA updates in March 2026 to coincide with SOTA’s 24th Anniversary that falls on 2nd March 2026. However, Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 will remain a valid SOTA summit until 31st May 2026. As the G/SE regional notes currently mention Cliffe Hill G/SE-014, I will need to correspond in due course with the G/SE Region Manager David @G3RDQ with regards to this in due course. In my personal opinion, I am pleased that Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 is no longer a Marilyn and that by June 2026 will no longer be a SOTA summit because the actual summit of this is on a golf course when the last time I activated this SOTA summit which was nearly 7 years ago now with my dad Tom @M1EYP, we met one golfer who was very friendly, but we also met a golfer who was very unfriendly.

Another change is that Mynydd Machen GW/SW-030 has now been replaced by Mynydd y Grug. This means that Mynydd Machen GW/SW-030 will get removed from the SOTA programme in due course and Mynydd y Grug will get added to the SOTA programme in due course also and will probably get SOTA reference GW/SW-042. I will leave it to the GW - Association Manager Roger @MW0IDX to announce when he’ll be doing the Wales (GW) SOTA updates and also as to when the GW SOTA summits change take effect, however I believe that Roger MW0IDX is planning for the GW SOTA summit change to happen at a similar time to when Cliffe Hill G/SE-014 gets removed from the SOTA programme. This GW SOTA change is actually very similar to when Hensbarrow Beacon G/DC-004 got replaced by Hensbarrow Downs G/DC-008 which was the 2nd SOTA summit to be added to the G (England) Association after me and my dad Tom M1EYP activated all the England (G) SOTA summits initially so we were 3rd time lucky activating this entire association. For the Wales (GW) Association, one new Marilyn was added to GW (Wales) Association after the activated all the Wales (GW) Association initially and we since activated the additional GW SOTA summit. Now that Mynydd y Grug will be added to the GW (Wales) Association, it’s only fair that eventually me and my dad Tom M1EYP will be 3rd time lucky activating the entire GW (Wales) Association, like we were activating the G (England) Association and given that Mynydd y Grug is very similar to Hensbarrow Downs G/DC-008 is just a coincidence also. What is frustrating though is that Mynydd y Grug isn’t daytrippable for me and my dad Tom M1EYP and therefore we will need to do a 1 or 2 night stay somewhere for just one unique.

In addition to the above Guir-bheinn GM/SI-142 hasn’t been a Marilyn since May 2021 and therefore will need to be removed from the SOTA programme at some-point. I am sure that in due course that the GM - Association Manager Andy @MM0FMF will do a Scotland (GM) Association update and add a valid to date for Guir-bheinn GM/SI-142.

All changes mentioned above have been updated on the Hill Bagging website already (https://www.hill-bagging.co.uk/).

Jimmy M0HGY
G - Association Manager

[M1EYP]

Good riddance to Cliffe Hill - rubbish summit. Though with the G AM allowing such a lenient notice period, I suspect it’s inevitable that I’ll activate it at least once more despite my dislike of it!

Hope Alan Dawson finds reason to remove Crowborough’s Marilyn status too!

Shame about Mynydd Machen, which I’ve always enjoyed. Though it is reported that its successor Mynydd y Grug is “a pleasant walk” so I’ll look forward to that trip. As Jimmy says, it’s slightly beyond daytrip range, but that’s cool as it will mean at least one more day in that area. There’s lots of very easy to access summits round there, so I sense an opportunity to bag a large number of activations in just 2-3 days.

Looking forward to the new edition of the RHB book. Should be an enjoyable coffee table read.

[MM0FMF]

@M0HGY

add a valid to date for Guir-bheinn

It looks a bit a long trudge TBH. Still I should plan to do it and delete it soon.

[M1MAJ]

@M1EYP

Good riddance to Cliffe Hill

Caroline and I activated it yesterday evening and really enjoyed it. We found a nice activation spot at TQ 43465 10794 which is just outside the boundary of the golf course on the 150m contour. Caroline used a fencepost for her antenna support. I found plenty of space to the north east of the track for my linked dipole, with just a small contrivance to avoid the back guy encroaching on the track which was used by a few cyclists while we were there.

An easy and pleasant activation. A pity it has to go.

Martyn M1MAJ

[G4OIG]

@MM0FMF

It looks a bit a long trudge TBH. Still I should plan to do it and delete it soon.

It’s not that bad actually, though the summit might be considered unremarkable. At least on island summits, there’s usually a pleasant sea view. Thankfully I have it as a Complete, all done and dusted back in 2013. I shall always remember this one as I almost trod on an Adder on the way off the hill.

As for Mynydd Machen, I’m still waiting for a Complete 17 years since activating the hill. I will be scanning the alerts very carefully from now on…

[MW0WML]

@M0HGY

Now that Mynydd y Grug will be added to the GW (Wales) Association

Good excuse for me to have a trip into South Wales once it is officially added. So I can get back to my 100% activated in GW and G.

[GM5ALX]

I’ve previously had a glancing blow with marilyns and the defintions etc. but this post has been gnawing at me to set off on a nerdy trek through the nitpick jungle of hill categorisation, where every bump is measured with surgical precision and every peak’s rank debated like a grammar spod arguing over the Oxford comma … or something like that.

I’ve seen others comment over why some of the Scottish Islands summits aren’t SI, like Windy Hill, GM/SS-265, Ailsa Craig, GM/SS-246, and others, and I’ve wondered why Morrone, GM/CS-060, is CS, when Creag Bhalg, GM/ES-046, is ES. So I decided to look up the story in the GM association manual. It’s in here that I see the RHB regions are used to assign hills to the SOTA regions, where one SOTA region is multiple RHB region.

Continuing this journey I venture over to Hill Bagging website, which houses the data on behalf of the RHS. I noticed there is Topographical areas as well as RHB regions, and I wondered if these would filter the hills in a different way such that all Island summits would be SI, and how that would change the distribution of summits across the GM regions. Given quite the range from ES have 87 and WS having 347.

These are listed in the table below. I have actually made up Scottish Borders as these get put in the Cheviot hills (in a strange fashion imo) but I guess they have country filters elsewhere. I also added the -X to the Area code so you can distinguish between the mutiple sub areas with a unique code. e.g. Western Highlands.

I think these areas split up the country in a nice fashion, and so I went about assigned them to SOTA regions to see what it might look like. This is where a table of data starts to get tricky and so I wanted an interactive map…a voila. This allows me to set what SOTA region each Topographical area could be and then see it on a map plus some distributions of the summits.

I think the area names make it quite obvious as to which regions they should be, but of course this is always debatable. My split assigns them like this:

Area name	Area	New GM region
Arran, Bute and nearby	IA	SI
Barra and nearby	IB	SI
Central Highlands: North	HC-N	CS
Central Highlands: South	HC-S	CS
Central Scotland	SC	CS
Coastal Islands	IC	SI
Eastern highlands: North	HE-N	ES
Eastern highlands: South	HE-S	ES
Extremity Islands	IX	SI
Islay, Jura and nearby	IJ	SI
Lewis-Harris and Nearby	LH	SI
Monadhliath	HM	CS
Mull, Tiree and nearby	IM	SI
Northern Highlands	HN	NS
Orkney Islands	IO	SI
Rum, Eigg and nearby	IR	SI
Scottish Borders	SB	SS
Shetland Islands	IS	SI
Skye and nearby	SK	SI
Southern Highlands: East	HS-E	SS
Southern Highlands: West	HS-W	SS
Southern Scotland: East	SS-E	SS
Southern Scotland: West	SS-W	SS
Uists and nearby	IU	SI
Western Highlands: Ardnamuchan	HW-A	WS
Western Highlands: Central	HW-C	WS
Western Highlands: North	HW-N	NS
Western Highlands: South	HW-S	WS

Covering this area - note there is overlap due to my simple way of drawing the polygons.

With the shuffling of summits around the distribution across the regions is a little more similar, with WS getting the biggest hair cut with CS picking up many of them, even whilst giving away Cairngorm summits to ES (hear! hear!). And every island summit is infact SI.

Region	Original	New
WS	347	198
SS	283	258
SI	222	227
NS	155	194
CS	124	219
ES	87	122

With all that we end up with 208 summits that have moved region and absolutely messed up the numbering from tallest to smallest.

The list of 208 summits if you're interested

Number	SOTA Ref	Hill name	Area name	Original SOTA region	Assigned Region
1	GM/CS-003	Beinn a’ Ghlo - Carn nan Gabhar	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
2	GM/CS-009	Beinn a’ Ghlo - Braigh Coire Chruinn-bhalgain	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
3	GM/CS-011	Glas Tulaichean	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
4	GM/CS-014	Beinn Iutharn Mhor	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
5	GM/CS-020	Carn an Righ	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
6	GM/CS-023	Beinn Dearg	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
7	GM/CS-024	An Sgarsoch	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
8	GM/CS-027	Carn an Fhidhleir [Carn Ealar]	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
9	GM/CS-029	Beinn a’ Ghlo - Carn Liath	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
10	GM/CS-030	Carn a’ Gheoidh	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
11	GM/CS-031	Carn a’ Chlamain	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
12	GM/CS-035	Meall Chuaich	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
13	GM/CS-036	Carn Bhac	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
14	GM/CS-038	An Socach	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
15	GM/CS-039	Carn na Caim	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
16	GM/CS-045	Beinn Bhreac	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
17	GM/CS-046	Leathad an Taobhain	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
18	GM/CS-049	Ben Vuirich	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
19	GM/CS-051	Beinn Mheadhonach	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
20	GM/CS-057	A’ Chaoirnich [Maol Creag an Loch]	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
21	GM/CS-060	Morrone	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
22	GM/CS-061	Carn Dearg Mor	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
23	GM/CS-065	Ben Vrackie	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
24	GM/CS-069	An Dun	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
25	GM/CS-077	Ben Gulabin	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
26	GM/CS-084	Meallach Mhor	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
27	GM/CS-092	Creag Ruadh	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
28	GM/CS-094	Blath Bhalg	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
29	GM/CS-102	Creag nam Mial	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
30	GM/CS-108	Deuchary Hill	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
31	GM/CS-116	Hill of Persie	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
32	GM/CS-122	Newtyle Hill	Eastern highlands: South	CS	ES
33	GM/NS-151	Mount Eagle	Western Highlands: Central	NS	WS
34	GM/SS-059	Ben Cleuch	Central Scotland	SS	CS
35	GM/SS-126	Earl’s Seat	Central Scotland	SS	CS
36	GM/SS-129	Meikle Bin	Central Scotland	SS	CS
37	GM/SS-154	West Lomond	Central Scotland	SS	CS
38	GM/SS-163	Stronend	Central Scotland	SS	CS
39	GM/SS-169	Innerdouny Hill	Central Scotland	SS	CS
40	GM/SS-175	Carleatheran	Central Scotland	SS	CS
41	GM/SS-176	Steele’s Knowe	Central Scotland	SS	CS
42	GM/SS-187	Bishop Hill	Central Scotland	SS	CS
43	GM/SS-190	Lendrick Hill	Central Scotland	SS	CS
44	GM/SS-192	Craigowl Hill	Eastern highlands: South	SS	ES
45	GM/SS-198	East Lomond	Central Scotland	SS	CS
46	GM/SS-216	Dumyat	Central Scotland	SS	CS
47	GM/SS-222	Duncolm	Central Scotland	SS	CS
48	GM/SS-234	Dumglow	Central Scotland	SS	CS
49	GM/SS-235	King’s Seat	Eastern highlands: South	SS	ES
50	GM/SS-242	Benarty Hill	Central Scotland	SS	CS
51	GM/SS-246	Ailsa Craig	Arran, Bute and nearby	SS	SI
52	GM/SS-259	Largo Law	Central Scotland	SS	CS
53	GM/SS-262	Norman’s Law	Central Scotland	SS	CS
54	GM/SS-265	Windy Hill	Arran, Bute and nearby	SS	SI
55	GM/SS-271	Turin Hill	Eastern highlands: South	SS	ES
56	GM/SS-275	Cairnie Hill	Central Scotland	SS	CS
57	GM/SS-277	Mount Hill	Central Scotland	SS	CS
58	GM/SS-279	Carn Breugach	Coastal Islands	SS	SI
59	GM/WS-001	Ben Nevis [Beinn Nibheis]	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
60	GM/WS-002	Aonach Beag	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
61	GM/WS-003	Carn Mor Dearg	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
62	GM/WS-005	Stob Choire Claurigh	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
63	GM/WS-007	Bidean nam Bian	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
64	GM/WS-009	Ben Alder	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
65	GM/WS-010	Geal-charn	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
66	GM/WS-011	Binnein Mor	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
67	GM/WS-013	Ben Cruachan	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
68	GM/WS-015	Stob Coire Easain	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
69	GM/WS-017	Meall a’ Bhuiridh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
70	GM/WS-019	Creise	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
71	GM/WS-020	Sgurr a’ Mhaim	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
72	GM/WS-021	Sgurr Choinnich Mor	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
73	GM/WS-022	Stob Ghabhar	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
74	GM/WS-023	Beinn a’ Chlachair	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
75	GM/WS-025	Ben Starav	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
76	GM/WS-028	Liathach - Spidean a’ Choire Leith	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
77	GM/WS-031	Geal Charn	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
78	GM/WS-032	Chno Dearg	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
79	GM/WS-033	Stob Coir’ an Albannaich	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
80	GM/WS-037	Am Bodach	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
81	GM/WS-038	Carn Dearg	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
82	GM/WS-042	Beinn a’ Bheithir - Sgorr Dhearg	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
83	GM/WS-043	Liathach - Mullach an Rathain	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
84	GM/WS-044	Buachaille Etive Mor - Stob Dearg	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
85	GM/WS-047	Beinn Bheoil	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
86	GM/WS-049	Sgurr Eilde Mor	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
87	GM/WS-052	Beinn Eighe - Ruadh-stac Mor	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
88	GM/WS-057	Beinn a’ Bheithir - Sgorr Dhonuill	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
89	GM/WS-058	Stob Ban	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
90	GM/WS-059	Glas Bheinn Mhor	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
91	GM/WS-061	Sgurr na h-Ulaidh [Sgor na h-Ulaidh]	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
92	GM/WS-063	Beinn Eighe - Spidean Coire nan Clach	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
93	GM/WS-065	Beinn Eunaich	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
94	GM/WS-068	Beinn Alligin - Sgurr Mor	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
95	GM/WS-069	An Gearanach	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
96	GM/WS-071	Beinn a’ Chochuill	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
97	GM/WS-072	Stob Ban	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
98	GM/WS-074	Aonach Eagach - Sgorr nam Fiannaidh	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
99	GM/WS-076	Beinn nan Aighenan	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
100	GM/WS-077	Sgorr Ruadh	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
101	GM/WS-078	Beinn Fhionnlaidh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
102	GM/WS-079	Buachaille Etive Beag - Stob Dubh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
103	GM/WS-081	Sgor Gaibhre	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
104	GM/WS-083	Stob a’ Choire Odhair	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
105	GM/WS-087	Binnein Beag	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
106	GM/WS-088	Carn Dearg	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
107	GM/WS-090	Beinn Sgulaird	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
108	GM/WS-091	Beinn na Lap	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
109	GM/WS-093	Maol Chean-dearg	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
110	GM/WS-094	Meall nan Eun	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
111	GM/WS-096	Buachaille Etive Beag - Stob Coire Raineach	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
112	GM/WS-097	Beinn Liath Mhor	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
113	GM/WS-098	Beinn Alligin - Tom na Gruagaich	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
114	GM/WS-104	Beinn Dearg	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
115	GM/WS-106	The Fara	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
116	GM/WS-108	Beinn Maol Chaluim	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
117	GM/WS-109	Fuar Tholl	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
118	GM/WS-110	Leum Uilleim	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
119	GM/WS-111	Beinn Damh	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
120	GM/WS-115	Beinn a’ Bhuiridh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
121	GM/WS-116	Ruadh-stac Beag	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
122	GM/WS-117	Beinn Bhan	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
123	GM/WS-119	An Ruadh-Stac	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
124	GM/WS-123	Meall a’ Ghiuthais [Meall a’ Ghiubhais]	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
125	GM/WS-126	Stob Dubh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
126	GM/WS-130	Fraochaidh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
127	GM/WS-133	Baosbheinn	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
128	GM/WS-135	Sgorr nan Lochan Uaine	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
129	GM/WS-136	Beinn Pharlagain - Meall na Meoig [Meall na Meoig]	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
130	GM/WS-138	Garbh Bheinn	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
131	GM/WS-140	Beinn Mhic Chasgaig	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
132	GM/WS-146	Beinn a’ Chrulaiste	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
133	GM/WS-147	Cruach Innse	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
134	GM/WS-149	Beinn an Eoin	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
135	GM/WS-155	Beinn Trilleachan	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
136	GM/WS-156	Beinn Udlaidh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
137	GM/WS-165	Creach Bheinn	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
138	GM/WS-166	Sgurr Innse	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
139	GM/WS-169	Beinn Bhreac-liath	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
140	GM/WS-172	Beinn Mhic Mhonaidh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
141	GM/WS-173	Mam na Gualainn	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
142	GM/WS-177	Glas Bheinn	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
143	GM/WS-178	Sgurr a’ Chaorachain	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
144	GM/WS-184	Sgurr Dubh	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
145	GM/WS-189	Meall Lighiche	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
146	GM/WS-198	Binnein Shuas	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
147	GM/WS-200	Pap of Glencoe	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
148	GM/WS-201	Stob na Cruaiche	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
149	GM/WS-202	Cnap Cruinn	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
150	GM/WS-204	Beinn na h-Eaglaise	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
151	GM/WS-208	Sgurr a’ Gharaidh	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
152	GM/WS-211	Mam Hael [Beinn Bhreac]	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
153	GM/WS-212	Beinn a’ Chearcaill	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
154	GM/WS-216	Beinn Mheadhonach	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
155	GM/WS-219	Beinn nan Lus	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
156	GM/WS-222	Meall Garbh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
157	GM/WS-227	Beinn Molurgainn	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
158	GM/WS-233	Carn Breac	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
159	GM/WS-234	Meall Mor	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
160	GM/WS-235	Beinn Suidhe	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
161	GM/WS-238	An Ruadh-mheallan	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
162	GM/WS-239	Binnein Shios	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
163	GM/WS-242	Meall Tairbh	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
164	GM/WS-243	Sgorr a’ Choise	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
165	GM/WS-247	Meall nan Eagan	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
166	GM/WS-252	Beinn Donachain	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
167	GM/WS-253	Beinn na Cloiche	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
168	GM/WS-256	Beinn na Sroine	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
169	GM/WS-259	Beinn a’ Chlachain [Meall an Doireachain]	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
170	GM/WS-260	Beinn na Feusaige	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
171	GM/WS-261	Tom Meadhoin	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
172	GM/WS-262	Creag Ghuanach	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
173	GM/WS-263	Beinn na Gucaig	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
174	GM/WS-271	Cruban Beag	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
175	GM/WS-272	Beinn Mheadhonach	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
176	GM/WS-277	Creag na Doire Duibhe	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
177	GM/WS-279	Beinn a’ Chuirn	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
178	GM/WS-280	Doire Ban	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
179	GM/WS-282	Beinn Duirinnis	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
180	GM/WS-284	An Grianan	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
181	GM/WS-285	Beinn Churalain	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
182	GM/WS-286	Leathad Mor	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
183	GM/WS-292	Ben Shieldaig	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
184	GM/WS-293	Bidean Bad na h-Iolaire [Bidein Bad na h-Iolaire]	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
185	GM/WS-296	Meall Luidh Mor	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
186	GM/WS-297	An Staonach	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
187	GM/WS-300	Sron Smeur	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
188	GM/WS-303	Glas Bheinn	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
189	GM/WS-305	Meall Mor	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
190	GM/WS-310	Beinn Donn	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
191	GM/WS-312	Beinn Sgluich	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
192	GM/WS-313	Bidein Clann Raonaild	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
193	GM/WS-321	Seana Mheallan	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
194	GM/WS-324	Meall an Doirein	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
195	GM/WS-328	Meall Lochan a’ Chleirich	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
196	GM/WS-329	Bad a’ Chreamha	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
197	GM/WS-331	An Sgurr	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
198	GM/WS-333	Carn Faire nan Con	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
199	GM/WS-336	Beinn Lora	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
200	GM/WS-337	An Cuaidh	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
201	GM/WS-339	Druim na h-Earba	Central Highlands: North	WS	CS
202	GM/WS-340	Beinn a’ Bhaillidh	Coastal Islands	WS	SI
203	GM/WS-341	Ardsheal Hill	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
204	GM/WS-342	Torr Achilty	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
205	GM/WS-346	Airds Hill	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS
206	GM/WS-347	Cruachan Charna	Coastal Islands	WS	SI
207	GM/WS-350	Sithean Mor [Sidhean Mor]	Western Highlands: North	WS	NS
208	GM/WS-351	Na Maoilean	Central Highlands: South	WS	CS

Feel free to play around with how you think they should be allocated and you too can waste your evening. I’m not holding my breath for a redistribution of summits anytime soon

[MM0FMF]

@GM5ALX

a redistribution of summits

Ah, a corollary to the story of the formulation changes that created New Coke in the 80s. We all know how well that went.

[MM7MOX]

If you do that we lose the Pi badge for GM/WS-314.
Andy
MM7MOX

[MM0FMF]

I think our colleagues down in Englandshire may be upset to see the SB summits taken from them too. Though maybe the loss of Sighty Crag won’t be a deal breaker;-)

[G8ADD]

The thing that puzzles me is why the RHB people decided to go their own way rather than follow the fairly logical Regions of Scottish mountains long established by the Scottish Mountaineering Club and covered by an excellent series of handbooks. I mean, when it has already been done so thoroughly, why do it all again? That said, the RHB regions have worked well enough for us since the establishment of SOTA so I see no value in further efforts to juggle boundaries.

[M1EYP]

Proposals like this more normally appear in the pre-bonus doldrums of November - or at the beginning of April…

There is a very good reason we use an independent definition and allocation from a third party. That reason is exquisitely illustrated by Alex’s proposal above

[M0HGY]

I would just like to clarify that all valid England (G) SOTA Summits will remain in England (G) Association and that no changes will be made to England (G) regions either.

Jimmy M0HGY
G - Association Manager

[GM5ALX]

Obviously I knew the answer before I even started doing anything. However, for completeness, the essential requirement of being technical correct, and to be absolutely precise. My proposal does not change any G summits. My reference to SB is that on RHB they have a topographical area called SE Cheviots which containts summits on both sides of the border. My processing of the data only dealt with whole areas and so it was either in (wrong as has G summits) or out (also wrong as missing GM summits). So I made a new topographical area - confusingly called SB - referring to the Scotland side of the border.

I do like the SMC regions as they relate to hill ranges but their website is data poor, or at least on first inspection.

[MM0FMF]

@GM5ALX

I knew the answer before I even started doing anything.

You also knew nobody would read all the proposal in fine detail before commenting too! I fell into TL;DR as I failed to see any immediate benefit to me However, I am an engineer and therefore somewhat on the spectrum in that things have to be stored and indexed into the correct boxes and stuff has to be done “properly” where properly is generally my definition of properly. So examples of intellectual onanism like this do entertain me. There’s probably an XKCD cartoon that describes this to a tee but I’m not going to look as that will be another lost hour or two

I was never too bothered that things seem to have been setup incorrectly in my opinion in GM because it was someone else’s scheme and there was no benefit to me to change it. The fact there are 2 island summits that are not in the SI (Scottish Island) region has been used as a useful quiz question many times. Likewise when I started looking at summit positions on the ground vs region allocation I looked at summits like GM/CS-060 and GM/ES-046 and why they were allocated so and noticed that the Geldie Burn, River Dee and Clunie Water rivers made a very obvious geographic separator between the N and E edges of the CS region and ES region. SS seems to go too far North IMHO too.

But as I said, someone else did the splits and changing things offered no obvious benefit to me so why make work. I suppose now I have completed the Southern part of SS, making SS into 2 regions means I’d have finally completed a GM region. That’s a good reason why having ES as 87 summits CS as 124 and WS as 347 is better than having ES as 150 summits and CS bigger and WS smaller. Completing an 84 summit region seems immediately feasible a few weeks after someone starts doing SOTA in the NE of Scotland. It’s the kind of personal challenge many people in associations like GM create because the scoring is relatively low and there are lots of quite strenuous/arduous summits. Activating and then completing 87 ES summits doesn’t seem impossible. There’s little actual benefit is splitting associations into regions other than it helps you know roughly where a summit may physically be located. In simple terms every GM summit just needs a unique ID and everything else is just chrome plating, something shiny for no essential gain.

In conclusion I find these subjects interesting discussion points. No I didn’t expect to see any damn fine reasons why summits should move between regions but the discussions that emerge may give rise to an interesting personal challenge for me and maybe some others to play with.

[GM5ALX]

@MM0FMF

There’s probably an XKCD cartoon

This one isn’t 100%, but I find myself using it quite often and so remember it:

Of course someone has a made a solution to this problem, which finds this one for me:

@MM0FMF

Activating and then completing 87 ES summits doesn’t seem impossible.

If you live in the area, it’s very doable without lots of planning or potential expense…if it’s something you want to achieve. Like you say, the actual numbers of the summits don’t matter. Perhaps they all should be uuids hashed from a combination of summit name, height, coordinates and points, and then we can decode all the information directly from the summit number. Plus then you get to confirm a 36 character string over the air.

Like the GM3VLB Islands award ^[1] , I did make a cairngorms climbers award (it lacks the silverware but still needs a bit of polish) which tracks who has qualified the most CNP summits ^[2]. Of course, the GM ES SOTA society’s officially anointed boundaries include these summits, as only befitting for such an empire who respects the people who operated within it. More on this later.

CNP has 89 summits, and could’ve been a region on its own - similar to how England was chopped up. Top ten currently stands as:

Operator	Total Summits
MM0YCJ	86
GM4TOE	84
MM0EFI	82
GM7PKT	71
MM0DHY	60
GM0GAV	52
GM5ALX	49
MM0ROV	46
MM0FMF	38
GM4COX	22

---

1. Currently a tie so far this year! ↩︎

2. No-one has them all yet ↩︎

[M1EYP]

I do have a good deal of sympathy with these observations. I’ve never understood the huge overlaps in the SS / CS / ES regions, or the two Scottish island summits that don’t qualify for SI.

Similarly, a whole bunch of GW/MW summits seem to lurch right down into SW territory. And NW references in Mid Wales. The boundary between G/CE and WB is rather blurred too.

The sealing factor is that an independent somebody else has already done it all - and given us permission to use that work. And anything that makes less work for MT is to be cherished