This book introduced the Marilyn (P150) concept and listed the hills for England, Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man. It was influential in helping the SOTA founders develop criteria for summits to be included in the programme.
A new edition is in preparation, and as well as the hill lists and data, it will include articles and stories from Marilyn baggers over the years. A couple of us (that I know of) have received emails from Alan Dawson requesting to use items written for the MARHOFN (âMarilyns Hall of Fame Newsletterâ) over the years.
The email I received was fished out of my junk mail folder last night. It was sent on Friday. I know that several other British SOTA activators have contributed written pieces for MARHOFN over the years, so worth checking your junk mail folders.
A controversial character in recent years. Text from Walkhighlands website.
The Fionas are the mountains in Scotland between 2000 and 2500 feet high, with at least 150 metres of descent on all sides. This is the same list of hills you need to climb to register your ascent of Grahams or the Full House with the Scottish Mountaineering Club.
They are named after the late hillwalker Fiona Torbet (maiden name Graham) who came up with the idea of a list of hills from 2000â to 2500â, to add to the existing Munros and Corbetts. This extended the work of J Rooke Corbett whose list covered 2500â - 3000â (Corbettâs list was the first to include the idea of a necessary relative height before hills were considered to be separate peaks.) Her original âGrahamsâ list, which covered only Highland peaks, was published in the Great Outdoors magazine.
Later, a strict 150m separation was agreed between her and Alan Dawson, who had already created a list of all British hills of any height, but with 150m of ascent on all sides. The resulting 2000-2500â hills with 150m separation was agreed by Fiona and Alan, and now extended to the whole of Scotland - they retained the name Grahams. However, some years after Fiona had tragically been killed, Alan Dawson obtained a registered trademark on the use of the Grahams name, since 2022 use of the now trademarked Grahams name requires abandonment of the historic 2000â criterion, commercial licensing, and a mandatory split into 10 regions that he specifies.
For these reasons, and to keep with original idea of hills between 2000â and 2500â by Fiona Torbet (Graham) - these hills on Walkhighlands are now listed as the Fionas. We regret the need to legal need to use a new name, but this name - suggested to us by the SMC - retains the link to the list originator Fiona Torbet, and has no commercial trademark or ownership - it can be freely used by anyone forever.
Personally, I wouldnât have anything to do with him.
I was just worried that when you said that you personally wouldnât have anything to do with Alan Dawson, that this might include participating in a scheme that is based on his data (in G/GM/GW/GD) and uses it with his permission.
Iâm fine with him writing a book, Tom. Copywrighting the name âGrahamsâ is a different matter. Iâd appreciate you and anyone elses views on this. Also, do I need to apply for his permission before using the term in my SOTA reports?
Anyway, not sure how you extrapolated my disagreeing with his actions to me abandoning the SOTA programme?
Well, I was only pulling your leg in an admittedly mischievous fashion, so I didnât imagine you were leaving in all honesty.
But to answer your question - you stated you would have nothing to do with Alan Dawson. Yet his name appears on the front cover of the Scottish Association Reference Manual for SOTA acknowledging his permission for the scheme to use his data. So if Iâm being pedantic (which has been known, from time to time), then to âhave nothing to do with himâ in any sort of principled way, then you couldnât possibly consider continuing your participation in SOTAâŚ
Anyway, Iâm glad thatâs not the case as your expedition reports are amongst the very best we have on here, so long may they continue.
Unfortunately life seems to be full of moral sacrifices one has to make in order to participate in things. Eg anything involving Meta products like Facebook, WhatsApp and Instagram. A company that makeâs Alanâs escapades look like colouring outside the lines.
There does appear to be a âhandbagsâ issue regarding the copyright. As I read it the issue boils down to people not liking adjustments to the list of summits. Not the usual âwe measured it and itâs 55cm too smallâ kind of change, but metrification and lowering the start point from 609.6m to 600m.
When people put significant amounts of effort into work that gets published, itâs not unreasonable to want to stop others making money off that work or misrepresenting it⌠Now you cannot copyright a list, but you can copyright its presentation and name, which is what happened. Anyone can publish the list of Grahams and use the name as long the data itâs associated with remains in the same format as A. Dawson published and somewhere you acknowledge that itâs Alanâs list and copyright.
Why was it copyrighted? Probably because âstalwartsâ didnât want to accept the changes made especially as the originator (who entered into agreement with A. Dawson over the name and usage) had been murdered and wasnât around to comment. Alan didnât want to see the list heâd worked on be misrepresented hence copyrighting. If he didnât want people to use it on their websites etc. the permission to do so with acknowledgement etc. would not exist.
It probably seems a petty issue amongst all the worldâs problems. Donât forget that the original SOTA in the UK was based on the RHB list Marilyns and the SOTA originators obtained permission to use the list.
Youâre all welcome to your own opinions on this issue. Some of those opinions will be wrong
But it is not his âdataâ. He does not own the surveys giving the summit and col heights (with some possible exceptions for re-surveys) so it is his collation of the data that he claims, yet anyone can perform the same collations independantly and get the same list. Furthermore the word âMarilynâ that he coined is falling somewhat into disuse in SOTA, we tend to talk more of âSOTA Summitsâ. I doubt that there is any talk of Marilyns outside the UK and perhaps we ought to drop the term in the UK. It always was a silly little joke and regrettably the original Marilyn is vanishing in the rear view mirror so the joke will also fade.
The SMC has always been stern supporters of tradition - when I started climbing the Scottish âold schoolâ climbers were aghast at the idea of using crampons for winter climbing, if you didnât cut steps with an ice axe, a slow and laborious process on ice, you were frowned upon! It does not surprise me that they want to retain the traditional lists rather than deal with metric âGrahamsâ, that is fully in keeping with the old SMC, in my view a rather endearing daftness. Despite this I do not like Dawsonâs method of dragging them kicking and screaming into the metric future.
Munros
Scottish mountains over 3,000 feet (914.4 meters). Corbetts
Scottish mountains between 2,500 and 3,000 feet (762 and 914.4 meters). Grahams
Scottish mountains between 2,000 and 2,500 feet (610 and 762 meters). Donalds
Hills in the Scottish Lowlands over 2,000 feet (610 meters).
And as Brian said, Marilyns
Hills of any height with a drop of at least 150 meters (492 feet) on all sides. So, our P150 SOTA summits, regardless of height.
We also have HuMPs
Hills of any height with a drop of at least 100 meters (328 feet) on all sides. These form the amateur radio HEMA programme.
Mr Dawson has copyrighted the Grahams, so everyone else is now calling them Fionas, after the woman who actually came up with the idea. What gives Mr Dawson the right to change the qualification height?
Yes, a storm in a teacup, relatively speaking. Tom mentioned being pedantic. Does this pedantry extend to abandoning one list of hills for another, just because heâs a Mr Dawson fanboy?
Anyway, SOTA is still SOTA. Lots of hills to climb and experiences to be had. Long may it continue.
Itâs not the data but the collation of the data, its presentation and the name that is copyrighted.
Nope. Thatâs the original list and that was âmetrificatedâ to 600-762m causing problems between New Grahams and Old Grahams. People were getting confused and some people didnât want a change. The 610-762 list are the Fionas now. So you can pick and choose which list you want.
Itâs his list. He worked with Fiona Graham when she published her original list. They revised her list based on his RHB summits list, changed some requirements regarding distance and added in missing summits. They worked on it together and it was a joint project and they had an agreement. Iâm sure if she wasnât dead they would have worked on the revisions jointly but itâs the fact he changed the definition of their list and Fiona is no longer alive to agree or disagree with the changes is what is bugging some people. He did the changes some years after she had been killed and not the day after she disappeared!
Youâll have to help me out here Fraser, as I canât seem to decrypt this one! Unless you meant âextend to NOT abandoning one list of hills for anotherâ?
