Thanks for removing from the database.
My initial reaction had been the same as others on this thread…the height of the trig point is within 25m of the summit, so no problem.
On further reading I discovered the old thread (and the sota rules) that state the AZ must be contiguous, so the col renders the trig point invalid.
Glad it was only 1 point.
Interestingly, since the height difference is 70cm, the top of the trig point must be the highest spot.
At least your activation will count for the WAB Trig Points Award!
As I was trying to get to sleep last night, I realized my way of deciding whether any desired activation spot is in the AZ or not using the Muncaster case, was a bit faulty.
You have to ask, could I have walked here from the summit without dropping more than 25m in height? So, start with the summit height [let’s take the Muncaster Fell case, 232m] then look on the map for, or imagine, an encircling contour line 25m below it [at 207m ASL in this case]. I used the 200m contour line [as shown on the OS Map] for my calculation above whereas the 207m line [probably not shown on any map] is the one to use.
In walking from the new Muncaster SOTA summit to the old one you don’t have to cross the 200m line [as I implied] but you definitely have to go below the 220m and 210m contours [and cross them again going up to the old summit]. So, you drop at least 22m. And I suppose you must be losing at least another 3m in height somewhere in the middle near Hooker Moss – thereby leaving the AZ.
The moral of the story is – unless you can or want to pour over detailed maps before or during your activation - don’t stray very far from the summit.
The crow flies straight from Hooker Crag to Muncaster Fell Andy. It galled me to have to return there to activate the new summit, but it had to be done to re-complete England - as did the onerous trip to visit DC-008 Hensbarrow Beacon near St. Austell after they built the china clay heap way higher than the trig point and DC-004 became DC-008.
The moral of the story is to do your homework before embarking on an activation! Don’t take anything for granted, go to the summit page and look at the map, read any information that other activators have added to the page - in the case of Muncaster Fell there are two useful write-ups. That page is there to help prevent mistakes and provide guidance. One further point, though: the routes taken in the write-ups are not necessarily the best ones to take, often there are several choices, so study the map and use your judgement.
I would like to explain to you all who are querying why the SOTA reference changed from G/LD-055 and to G/LD-059 when the new summit was found to the higher than the trig point. This is because the trig point and the new summit are not within the activation zone of each other, if they were within the activation zone of each other I would not have changed the SOTA reference, only the summit position. When I first found out about this change, I was unsure from looking at the maps whether or not the trig point and new summit were within the activation zone of each other as the col height from looking at the contour lines could have been anywhere between 200m and 210m meaning that the col could have been between 21.4m and 31.4m lower than the trig point and 22.1 and 32.1 lower than the new summit. Luckily the RHB surveyed the col height which was found to be at 201.1m so therefore 30.3m lower than the trig point and 31m lower than the new summit meaning the trig point and new summit are not within the activation zone of each other so this was why the SOTA reference changed. Some more information about the col height and drops from both summits can be found here Mountain Search. Here’s a link also to the original thread in regards to this SOTA reference change also New G summit - #12 by M0HGY.
Jimmy M0HGY
G - Association Manager
On September 24, 2022 during my activation of G/LD-059 I made contact with Matthew @M0MZB - the originator of this post.
We started chatting about the location of the new summit; a non-descript location signified by a large boulder.
Out of interest, on my way back, I walked to the old summit and whilst standing behind the trig point looking at the new summit, my SOTA Goat app stated I was ‘Within Activation Zone’ with a distance of 469m between me and - 7m below - the summit.
I tend to walk to each summit and once arrived determine the best operating position.
But this shows not to soley rely on an app to determine whether you are in the AZ or not!
Hi Robert
Referring to an earlier thread, Sota Goat uses a rule of 25m within 1km to define the AZ - there are clearly cases where the terrain can beat that rule so it’s not definitive.
Rick
Not the words I’d use to describe it 
Within 1km? Do you mean it considers any vertical height less than 25m of the summit that’s within 1km horizontal distance of the summit as being in the AZ regardless of topology?
As a game I sometimes walk to and fro at my frequently-visited summits to try to get a zero, zero reading on SOTAgoat [i.e. horizontal distance & vertical height from the summit]. Coming back to the same position a few times the readings are usually +/-3m of each other, which is consistent with what the GPS org say: “GPS-enabled smartphones are typically accurate to within a 4.9 m (16 ft.)”
I’ve never needed SOTAgoat to get me to a summit but it’s useful for knowing when you are in the AZ.
But only if the summit matches the inaccurate view of what it thinks is the summit AZ. I know Andy that you know what you are doing despite doing your best to convince us otherwise 
However, for people new to SOTA or who cannot navigate or never checked a map before leaving for a summit, it’s dodgy that apps like this don’t give a big “YOU MAYBE IN THE AZ, PLEASE CHECK” warning.
I can think of a few GM and G summits where it will tell you are in the AZ when you are not and not in the AZ when your are
Hi Andy, [assuming this is not one of your subtle wind-ups and taking your words at face value] I can assure you that I’m not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything [like I’m more stupid than I really am. Don’t consult my wife]. I’m also not trying to advocate the use of SOTAgoat or similar apps.
Quite the contrary, I like to think I am guided by the evidence and my ears [eyes?] pricked up when I read Rick’s @M5RJC brief statement suggesting a limitation with SOTAgoat. Unfortunately, he didn’t give a link to the “earlier thread” hence my request for clarification.
His statement and yours (“the inaccurate view of what it thinks is the summit AZ”) could be true but I prefer to modify my behaviour (e.g. stop using SOTAgoat) based on hard evidence not opinion. If you know more, please take the time to give / point to it.
P.S. I’ve been thinking recently of doing Muncaster (G/LD-059) again. It would be interesting to see if SOTAgoat thinks it / I am in the AZ when standing at the WOTA summit trig point.
I doubt very much you will be in the AZ when at the original WOTA summit Andy due to the Hooker Moss col. How accurate will your SOTAgoat be on the day? It might tell lies. You best walk between them and take readings as you go, but you might get wet feet.
73 Phil
Here is the earlier thread:
Hi
That’s how I understand it - link to original discussion is here
https://reflector.sota.org.uk/t/let-sota-goat-guide-you/22487/11
Rick
Oops sorry Adrian got there first
Please see my screenshot of the SOTAGoat app a few posts above. I was standing at the trig point as described.
I don’t rely on the app for navigation, but take a screenshot when at the summit. I do not care whether the GPS accuracy of my phone is 5 metres out; I will be at the summit.
The issue is that the app tells me I am in the AZ, whilst I am not.
There may be a hand full of summits in G/GW where there may be an issue with a false positive.
Also, it did not seem the drop was 25 metres between the old and new summit. Again, best to rely on more accurate instruments to make that judgement.
I always make sure i am at the summit first and then determine where to operate from.
People should be aware that in some cases - as with this one - the SOTAGoat app could give a false positive as its determination is purely on distance to and absolute height difference with the summit, rather than taking into account what is in between you and the summit.
73, Robert
Hi Robert
It’s also worth noting that the altitude accuracy of consumer GPS is much less than the positional accuracy
Rick
It does… the restoration of this 2yr old thread is precisely the fact it says that when you are at the trig point.
