Moderation in all things?

Old Reflector
21

You brought all this on yourself Brian, jumping to the rescue of a fellow committee member who was justly being critisised for operating low powered hand helds from summits, it was a justified comment as this activator continually operates from summits in this fashion, this was not a ‘one off’ his choice maybe, but its also our choice to criticise such a seasoned activator, you deleted my post which was worded in such a fashion to encourage this activator to consider chasers further afield, I took it as personal to have my post deleted.

John M0JDK

22

Dear All,

There’s a lot of tooing and froing going on here, an not a lot being achieved. We appear to be into the realms of defining what is considered “offensive”. What is it about the human race and having to have a definition for absolutely anything it encounters?

One of the things I love about amateur radio is that it is a gentlemanly hobby. I have largely considered SOTA to be exemplary in this respect. Perhaps we could apply the same kind of courteous approach that we would on air? I’ve never got into a heated debate on air, even when accidentally barging in on people’s frequencies, a little humility and tact has stood me in good stead. I certainly have never had anything other than a lovely QSO with every single one of you who that I have worked.

Whenever we hear something on air that is “a bit above and beyond the call of duty” we react with shock or surprise - often it is worthy of astonished recall next club night. So, seemingly, there is an inbuilt sense of “how far one can go” within the hobby. How about upholding it here?

I’m a real stickler for freedom of speech, you could probably guess that simply by clapping eyes on me. And I’m not trying to stop people expressing their individual outlooks, far from it. I was told recently that I “call a spade a digging implement”, yet I do not often find myself being misunderstood. Clarity and a gentlemanly approach are not mutually exclusive.

It saddens me that SOTA is degenerating into squabbling. When I first discovered it, it was about what kind of antenna the ice was growing on, warm welcomes from old hands that were yet to be disillusioned and activation reports so vivid that you were almost there. That said, everyone I talk to on air is still perfectly courteous towrds me and towards each other - so why not on here?

Just the contents of my brain - don’t take it to heart.

(Genuine) 73 to all,

Dave 2E0BYA.

23

In reply to 2E0KPO:

In reply to G8ADD:

As for two rules… you posted…

“Post by G8ADD on 27th July 2008 at 20:48 In reply to M0LMP:

As it is an apology I have allowed this post to stand. Let this be the
end of the matter.

Let us be clear, no acrimonious or discourteous postings will be
allowed to stay on this reflector, and anybody making such postings
will lose their posting privileges.

This thread is at an end.

73

Brian G8ADD”

And then allowed yourself to post 4 more times

After you said…

“Post by G8ADD on 27th July 2008 at 16:06 In reply to thread:

Guys, this topic should now be put to bed. It is getting unedifying
again, so stop now before somebody goes too far.

All further comments will be erased.

73

Brian G8ADD”

Two rules in my eyes…

There is another example in the last few days Brian… if you plan to
make rules stick to them please and set an example.

Ah, so it is not about the malpractises of the MT at all, is it, its about my style as moderator. You think I ought to be more strict.

How ironic!

It seems that you’ve got me either way. If I am a little relaxed you criticise me for not being strict enough, but at the same time if I delete posts then I am being heavy handed. Clearly I cannot satisfy you whatever I do.

I was at fault in not being so strict as to delete an apology. I was at fault in soothing someone who felt my actions were aimed at him personally. You seem to prefer me to moderate like a bulldozer and at the same time not moderate at all.

Well, I allow myself some leeway in dealing with the users of this site. Thats me.

In the meantime, since your accusation of the MT running two sets of rules was clearly by your explanation only aimed at me, do you think you owe the rest of the MT an apology?

73

Brian G8ADD

24

In reply to MM0FMF:

I would find none of those comments offensive Andy because they are not true. My mother would have great difficulty counting anything, she lies in her grave.

On this reflector a lot of remarks which are classed as offensive are just simple home truths that certain people can’t handle. Not insults, but simple true statements. Please, don’t ask for examples, I really don’t want to enter in to it and get myself black balled.

Mike GW0DSP

25

In reply to G8ADD:

I see no need for an apology. I don’t have other examples to hand and I will stick to what I say, there are two sets of rules IMHO

73
Steve

26

In reply to M0JDK:

You brought all this on yourself Brian, jumping to the rescue of a
fellow committee member who was justly being critisised for operating
low powered hand helds from summits, it was a justified comment as
this activator continually operates from summits in this fashion, this
was not a ‘one off’ his choice maybe, but its also our choice to
criticise such a seasoned activator, you deleted my post which was
worded in such a fashion to encourage this activator to consider
chasers further afield, I took it as personal to have my post deleted.

John M0JDK

Your post was deleted, John, as was Tom’s, in fact, because I had said that posts would be deleted and I meant what I said. If you wanted your words to be retained you should have started a new parallel thread, it isn’t rocket science. You chose to post in the face of a warning that posts would be deleted. This argues that you were either not bothering to read what had gone before, or you were deliberately challenging me. To take my advertised action personally in such circumstances is a little illogical, isn’t it?

You know, John, the thing that I really cannot understand is why you feel the need to criticise one particular activator for a style of activation which is common to so many people. Off the top of my head, I would say that at least half of all FM activations take place with the use of the good old-fashioned handheld and rubber ducky, and yet you and a few others criticise one person, just one person for doing just that, and that person wasn’t even doing a routine up, activate and down, but a lightweight long distance walk with activations. Can it be that Tom and his young son were the targets of your criticism simply because of his position?

Frankly, I don’t think you or anyone else has a leg to stand on in criticising Tom in this way. He did his activation the way he wanted to, and the way he wanted to was his business and his business alone. Your attempts at interfering with his personal rights and freedoms is not in the spirit of SOTA, or in the spirit of amateur radio for that matter.

It is ridiculous in the extreme to say that I “jumped to the rescue of a fellow committee member”, because in all frankness there was nothing to rescue him from. What power had you over him and his choices? None whatsoever. What harm could you do to him? None whatsoever. What right did you have on your side? None whatsoever. On the other hand this unjust and unreasonable carping could do harm to SOTA by dragging the program into disrepute, disrepute by association with your attitudes, and that harm is what I wish to counter.

Its late, and the DX on 5 megs isn’t getting through the QRN, I’m off to bed.

Goodnight

Brian G8ADD

27

In reply to G8ADD:

Putting the comments aside with regards to Tom and the fact that you are supposed to be a moderator, a position of responsibility, what right do you have to delete a critical but factual post?

Deleting a post in that way I would consider rude and arrogant and that makes you in my opinion a poor moderator.

You in effect slammed the door in people’s faces when it came to closing the thread. As a moderator you have the right to step in when the thread gets out of control, you don’t have the right to delete a post of that nature. Threads run their own course.

I my opinion you owe us all an apology for you’re over zealous censorship and you should seriously consider if you are suitable for the role if you plan to delete factual posts every time they are critical of someone.

(I guess you have the right to delete this one under your regime, as I am also being critical)

73
Steve

28

In reply to 2E0KPO:

Steve, when it comes to moderation clearly you don’t get around much. Take QRZ.com; they work with a team of moderators (well, its a much bigger site) and posts get deleted and whole threads get locked down or deleted on a regular basis. Moderators do that, you know, its why they are there.

You have the wrong end of the stick, too, about why I closed the thread. If I was closing threads down merely because they were critical then this one would have disappeared as soon as my internet service was restored last night. Reasoned criticism is healthy. I closed the thread because the posts were intemperate, rude and bad mannered.

Frankly, Steve, I am unmoved by your bluster about what I can and can’t do, you are trying to express your wishes and opinions as if they are universal truths but they aren’t, are they? In the end I moderate to try and keep this a friendly, good humoured and informative site and my hand is not heavy, witness this thread.

73

Brian G8ADD

29

In reply to G8ADD:
Why close one thread, And then open another thread, This is just taking to much room up, kilobytes or megabytes. Why dos’nt everyone do what we are all supposed to be doing, SOTA (Summits on the air,) And not moaning on the air, This is why i dont bother coming on here all that mutch, And as for playing radio up hills i dont see the point any more, we have chasers galour now only for them selfs and nothing else. Its all me me me, Whats all the fuss, I dont play anymore becuase no one wants to give points back unless you are on CW, Mind you i have been of radio as just moved house but not in a rush to get on the airwaves, As for walking nothing wrong with walking up big hills or small hills, Just like my adventure down the Peak District, Mam Tor, Win Hill and back down to Hope to our camp site for loads of beer,
You never Know i just might adventure up a sota summit soon,
Steve m0sgb.

30

I rarely post on this site. I add my chaser point and activations, have a read through others posts and leave.

Im very disappointed. I posted valid points and my posts were removed, Hardly encourages me to post more often does it?

73 Chris

31

In reply to 2E0FSR:
I agree
I posted (Last Night), on the thread that seems to be the main cause of this discussion (What’s the Point)…my post hasn’t appeared. Is that because I clicked the wrong button (quite possible!!), the thread is indeed closed, my comment wasn’t relevant, or because it was offensive?

I regarded my comment as relevant (it was an opinion), and in no way offensive, or though it would be at odds to some of the other comments - but that’s what discussion is about.

I thought Radio Amateurs where fine examples of what’s left of natures ‘gentlemen’ (apologies ladies, but I hope you know what I mean). It’s also a hobby, and an enjoyable hobby at that.

Please lets not let this forum (or SOTA) descend into a ‘slanging match’

Rob

32

In reply to G1TPO:

All,

Discussions/debates aside, count up how many people have announced over the last few days that they are no longer interested in SOTA and have left. Then consider the number who have just thrown in the towel without comment.

Is this really what was wanted?

Bye all

John
M0EAV

33

In reply to G1TPO:

Post it again in here then. I very much doubt you’d write anything offensive Rob. If it was deleted, it will have been deleted because there was message saying the thread was closed. If the thread could have been locked the problem with posts made after the moderator said stop would not have arisen.

Andy
MM0FMF

34

In reply to M0EAV:

Do you seriously believe that people are no longer interested in sota just because of a few scriblings on this reflector, which nobody is forced to read?

We need to take a look at the bigger picture, yes people are brassed off, but for reasons that are more deep rooted than that.

Mike GW0DSP

35

In reply to GW0DSP:

Mike,

I agree no one is forced to read the reflector, and I also agree that the reflector is not the main reason people are leaving. Perhaps I am not seeing the bigger picture and have missed something vital, but you have to consider the “final straw” effect and, as my post suggested, just count how many have now said Goodbye.

I’m all for discussion and debate, thats how thing progress, but when comments cause people to consider whether or not to bother taking part in a scheme then something is obviously amiss.

Sorry if I am still missing the point but I am just concerned that quite a few people have expressed how SOTA will now take a much lower priority than before. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things this number is insignificant.

All the best and good luck to all.

John
M0EAV

36

In reply to GW0DSP:

Do you seriously believe that people are no longer interested in sota
just because of a few scriblings on this reflector, which nobody is
forced to read?

Not ‘just because’… but they are a factor. I rarely go out to ‘play radio’…but often take a radio with me while out on the hills, this style of activation means I am usually on 2m fm, with a handy & rubber duck. As a consequence my QSO counts are usually fairly low, even though I never close down before all chasers have been contacted.

Over the past few months there have been many posts denigrating activations that fit this profile…and the overall effect does add up. I still go out on the hills, I still take a radio, I still reply to CQ & QRZ calls from other activators but I will often pass over a summit without calling CQ myself, unless someone earlier has expressed an interest in making contact.

To summarise…I am not dropping/abandoning SOTA but I am finding myself drifting away from the scheme; if it doesn’t add to my enjoyment while out, why do it?

All the best,
Richard M0EIQ

37

In reply to G8ADD:

Firstly Brian, I didn’t raise this issue, it was first raised on another thread, I just voiced my oppinion on a subject that was already raised, my comments are factual and true. Secondly, I see you find the need to invent things that are completely false.

““Can it be that Tom and his young son were the targets of your criticism simply because of his position””

Where in any of my postings have I mentioned Tom’s young son, with blatant lies like that I feel you as moderator need to re-consider your position.
This is a classic example of and OFFENSIVE posting, YOUR POSTING I look forward to your wriggling excuses, and maybe the deletion of YOUR OWN POSTINGS!

As I stated above I didnt raise this issue, but I just endorsed what another member already started and went on to state, which is true, that this activator often activates in this manner. My sole aim was to encourage this activator to consider the many dedicated chasers that are out there, who are easily reachable, but not in rubber duck range.

““Frankly, I don’t think you or anyone else has a leg to stand on in criticising Tom in this way. He did his activation the way he wanted to, and the way he wanted to was his business and his business alone. Your attempts at interfering with his personal rights and freedoms is not in the spirit of SOTA, or in the spirit of amateur radio for that matter””.

If you read my posting, I acknowledged it to be his choice, by I consider it my choice to offer an oppinion and to let him know there is many other chasers further afield waiting to work him.

““You know, John, the thing that I really cannot understand is why you feel the need to criticise one particular activator for a style of activation which is common to so many people””

Common??? How many activators carry 3 element beams, 2mtr ssb radios and only activate with H/helds Brian, is this the common way of activating your referring to, before you jump, this activator has stated on several other occasions, the beam is carried and only used if necessary.

““On the other hand this unjust and unreasonable carping could do harm to SOTA by dragging the program into disrepute, disrepute by association with your attitudes, and that harm is what I wish to counter.””

The above statement of yours is the biggee, my so called carping was worded in such a way as encorage this activator to use the equipment he, in most cases carries with him. You have chose to interfere in the postings, and with this latest one, print blatant lies where you feel the need to bring Tom’s son in to the thread.

I, like others in this thread have suggested, feel you seriously need to consider your position as a moderator Brian, you have successfully blown this up out of proportion by yourself, added blatant lies, if you had not of interfered the subject would more than likely heave ended by now.

John M0JDK

38

In reply to All:

It is now more evident than ever that there are two camps in the UK SOTA scheme, and the two are always at loggerheads, rightly or wrongly I will not name them or describe them as it may fall into Brians idea of unsuitable material for the reflector and thus be deleted or my hand slapped, I think most people know which camp I fall into, as evident from my posts and actions, but its time something was done about this bickering. Its doing no one any good nor is it doing the Scheme any good.
I personally think its about time this was all sorted once and for all and my suggestion is this…

Convene a meeting with the MT (all of them) and as many participants as possible, those that can make it, those that cant may send proxy comments or suggestions, the meeting will have an agenda as formulated by MT and participants beforehand, all matters will be addressed, hold the meeting in a convenient area as near central to the majority of activity on SOTA, we can all have our say BUT IN A MUTUALLY CONTROLLED MANNER, to try and thrash out the woes and wonders of the scheme, put to bed any problems, address personality issues, and hopefully put the unrest to bed.

What say ye ? good or no good ?

Lee

39

In reply to M0LMP:

Why dont the people who dont like how this forum is run go and post on the Summitsbase forum? I thought, and if I’m wrong please correct me, but it had been created for that very reason the last time there were heated and intemperate posts on here.

Andy
MM0FMF

40

In reply to MM0FMF:

Andy, leave the Summitsbase out of this please, it’s a cheap shot, as is your remark on the MT changes thread, which has marred Roger’s leaving and Barry’s arrival, I’m surprised that you chose to cheapen your good wishes to the pair. I hope that Brian deletes it, or better still maybe, hopefully, you would consider deleting the crass remark and just leave your good wishes.

The Summits Knowledge Base was not set up for the reasons you state, you need to get your facts right.

Mike