Every award scheme requires unambiguous rules and an unambiguous definition of the criteria used to determine what counts and what does not. SOTA is no exception. Way back in 2001 the early pioneers of SOTA put considerable effort into finding such an unambiguous listing of summits in the UK. After much debate, available for all to see on the Summits reflector, the Marilyn definition of a summit was adopted.
It is inevitable that any structured definition of what constitutes a summit will exclude some fine hills that happen to fall outside the definition. That does not invalidate the need for the unambiguous definition.
SOTA has been operational for approaching six years. The original rules have proved robust and have required only minor tweaks. The summit definition has similarly proved to be robust. The SOTA MT has therefore unanimously agreed that there will be no change to the summit qualification criteria. The SOTA MT considers this matter to be closed and will not engage in further public debate.
In reply to M1EYP:
"I can assure you all that the MT is watching and listening to this debate, but note that within this topic, the majority have expressed a wish for no change, matching the MT view. "
I know of plenty of other activators that are getting fed up with the travel times that are not posting on here. Maybe they are unaware of the discussion or maybe they are not willing to use their voice.
How many activators will it take to speak up before the MT will address this issue, this is a subject that has been brought up in the past and I expect will continue to rear its head in the future.
There needs to be a solution rather than this stubborn we are happy with the way it is and we are not looking to change.
So that’s it children, you have been told, consider your palms caned, now let the subject drop immediately and don’t dare have the cheek to question any of the other antiquated rules. Our MT have spoken so let that be an end to it, you have no right to a democratic vote, as ordered by our undemocratically elected MT.
By being autocratic, MT hold on to the power to rule without question!!
The real truth is that MT are aware Steve but as always they do the ostrich act and bury their heads in the sand. You know as well as I do about the fast growing numbers in sota who are getting fed up, period. Participants can do what they want, break the rules, manipulate the database, whatever, and MT do didley squat.
MT won’t get involved for their own good reasons.
Let’s reflect (pardon the pun) for a moment with an example:
Would you engage the DXCC desk at the ARRL in a discussion about whether they will employ a democratic process to approve DXpeditions (or other new DXCC entities)?
No of course we wouldn’t… and before anyone says “that’s not the same…” It really is just another awards programme.
I’m getting a little uncomfortable about the direction of the comments and I would appeal to us all to “cool our jets” a little.
As has been said… it’s only a (great) hobby that is founded on various things such as experimentation, skills development and that common fellowship that extends across borders. All of which are so relevant to SOTA and indeed it’s great that we have a bunch of such passionate people participating.
So personally, I’m very happy to maintain the “status quo” but let’s not “fall out” over this…
“The SOTA MT has therefore unanimously agreed that there will be no change to the summit qualification criteria.
The SOTA MT considers this matter to be closed and will not engage in further public debate.”
I have to say I am hugely disappointed with the inflexibility of the MT.
Get used to it Steve, that’s the sort of dictatorship we are dealing with here. Don’t think you stand alone Steve, very far from it, there is a very large and fast growing number who agree with your sentiments but choose not to post on the reflector, we have to respect their decision on that, but who could blame them, they know they are farting against thunder.
I don’t know what the problem is with SOTA being a dictatorship: are IOTA, DXCC, or WAB democracies? Do the disenfranchised masses yearn to vote themselves bread and circuses? It seems to me that however remote and disengaged the MT may seem, they are periodically bombarded with advice, requests, demands and criticism. If it were me I would be feeling more than a little under siege at present! And why does all this input arrive on the screens of the MT? Because they devised and established a scheme which is a runaway success! Also, consider why the MT seems remote and disengaged: the scheme was set up so well originally that there is little to do but basic maintenance. They can sit back and watch the majority enjoy themselves. I would much rather have this than a MT that is constantly intervening - King Log is a lot more comfortable to live with than King Stork, isn’t it? King Log is not joining in “discussions”, I assume because, frankly, nothing new has been said. It has all been said before. Just for fun, why not read the first thousand posts on the Yahoo reflector: I have got them saved, they make interesting reading and show how the SOTA program was exhaustively thrashed out before it was launched.
If a new tier is established to ease the lives of those who live well away from the hills, I suspect it would lack the prestige of the current SOTA scheme, where by and large the rewards are commensurate with the effort. These molehills will have no more significance than working squares or counties (there used to be a counties scheme, by the way, does it still exist?)
Like so many other things, hills are a finite resource. We cannot create more, so we make do with what we have got. As a veteran of the Friday night dash, I have visited pretty well all of our mainland mountain groups, expending energy and resources for all too brief opportunities to explore the hills. If the hills are in your blood, its what you do. It costs as much effort to get to the Torridon Mountains from Caernavon as it does from Coventry…perhaps less because our Welsh friends would not have to run the gauntlet of the low number junctions on the M6, but its still a long, expensive and exhausting drive. Inequalities run in strange ways, too: it is easier to get to Carnmenellis or the Watch Croft from Norfolk than it is from the Lake District. In other words, if you live in the flatlands you are not necessarily always at a disadvantage when you go activating.
I think we have to live with the accidents of geography and not dilute SOTA to cater for people who imagine that they are hard done by.
In reply to 2E0HJD:
Mick and Mike if you go back through the archive there are only one or two who share your views, yes I know I was one of them on Lee’s forum. But, if you look at the total users of SOTA, then the vociferous on here pale into insignificance. I thank the MT for their response and Mike your simile re children in school is far from relevant as is your reference to a dictatorship. Far too many award schemes have suffered from new blood wanting changes which were forced on an elected committee fearing non re-election. You wanted others to voice their opinions Mick ,so you have got mine. The status quo (what ever you want!) is what I want :-).
Roger G4OWG
sorry have to open the wine as the sherry bottle is empty 73 from Arran
If a new tier is established to ease the lives of those who live well
away from the hills, I suspect it would lack the prestige of the
current SOTA scheme, where by and large the rewards are commensurate
with the effort. These molehills will have no more significance than
working squares or counties (there used to be a counties scheme, by
the way, does it still exist?)
I cannot agree with your simplified analysis. There are many Marilyns that are very little higher than their access point - so what if a few more of these were added? Does adding Beacon Hill in Norfolk at 102m detract from the program? Obviously in your mind it does. I see it as one way of getting more people involved. Having to “cut your SOTA teeth” on summits over two hours away could make it a non-starter for many.
…it is easier
to get to Carnmenellis or the Watch Croft from Norfolk than it is from
the Lake District. In other words, if you live in the flatlands you
are not necessarily always at a disadvantage when you go activating.
I don’t follow the arguement in your examples. The point is that there are very few summits located close to Norfolk - anyone living over there starts with a disadvantage. You very conveniently ignore the issue of choice. If you live in the Lakes then there are plenty of summits on your doorstep so you don’t need to go to Cornwall to activate a decent number.
I think we have to live with the accidents of geography and not dilute
SOTA to cater for people who imagine that they are hard done by.
Nicely said Brian - I’ll remember that when I get leave the house at 3.15 a.m. on Saturday, but of course that’s my choice. I’ll just thank my lucky stars that I don’t live any further east!
I have said my piece now Roger and thats the end of it for me. I will always be outspoken and say what I think and not what I’m told.
Our MT is a dictatorship in my opinion, in as much that they rule without our consensus and their election is undemocratic.
Does anyone know how our MT chooses their new MT members? I certainly don’t know, all a bit secretive.
Sota is safe in MT hands Roger, that’s not in doubt, I just wish they would intervene more when serious issues are raised and take some action.
73 Mike
Enjoy the wine and the rest of your stay on Arran.
Yes, there are plenty of Marilyns with high access points, making them easier than others with sea-level starts, but at least when you are on a Marilyn you have a guaranteed height differential of 150 metres, something that you can see. Yes, in my mind dropping this differential and padding out the bottom of the ladder with molehills would indeed detract from the program!
I’m not sure I follow you, Gerald, when you say “If you live in the Lakes then there are plenty of summits on your doorstep so you don’t need to go to Cornwall to activate a decent number.” but if you want to experience the granite of Cornwall or the mica schist of Lochaber you still have to go there. The Lakeland hills are varied and wonderful but do you suggest that a local should stay there because he has a good number of summits, that he should feel no desire to experience the gabbro of the Cuillin of Skye or the crumbling quartzite of Foinavon, until he has ticked off all the LDs? You seem to be reducing the hills to nothing more than convenient pegs on which to hang a points score.
I have not seen Beacon Hill in Norfolk, its 102 metres may or may not be impressive, but is it not true that you only want to add it to bump up the numbers, and not for any other virtue it might possess?
It is worth remembering that the Victorian pioneers of Welsh mountaineering and climbing had to travel by train to Caernavon and then walk or take a stagecoach to Ogwen cottage, a 3.15 start from their homes on Saturday to climb hills the same day would have seemed a heavenly luxury to them! The first time I climbed the Watchcroft the M5 stopped at Bristol and it was a 10 hour drive from Birmingham to get to our campsite at Rosemergy. Haskett-Smith in the 1890’s didn’t feel any more at a disadvantage than I felt in 1973, that is where the hills were and that, therefore, was where you went. The argument now seems to say that if there are no qualified hills close to where you live, don’t go to the hills that are qualified, instead saw off the bottom of the goal posts to invent a few more hills. This to me is missing the point of going up hills.
When you recall yesterdays summit, do you remember the hill or the contacts. I remember the hill and dream of the next one. I suspect that you remember the contacts and dream of a better ODX for next time. If so our minds will have difficulty meeting on this!
Just one important point here Brian. Some sota participants put radio first and hillwalking second and only climb the hills because height is everything on vhf/uhf. I hasten to add that I am not one of them.
Others put hillwalking first and radio second. The latter group do tend to reach the summits every time and activate them successfully, well in most cases anyway.
Another point, if an activator is on a summit, of course he is interested in the points tally, thats why he carries radio equipment and calls cq sota.
Here’s a good point for debate, maybe worthy of another thread. How many activators would travel the same 300+ miles to the summits just to enjoy the walk and leave their radio equipment back at home. Be honest with your replies!!
Well as you might well guess, Mike, I can honestly hold my hand up! I did just that for decades, two weekend or day trips a month to the hills for their own sake, and three one week holidays a year including one at New Year (usually in Scotland) when I would consider myself fortunate to get in two or three good days on the hill, the other days spent sheltering from the weather or padding in the valleys because the tops were too inhospitable.
More difficult to answer for the future, the gear is so light and easy to carry, and there are more people listening, but if I went to Capel Curig, say, and found the radio wasn’t working, I would still go out and consider the trip a success.
“The latter group do tend to reach the summits every time and activate them successfully, well in most cases anyway.” Ouch!
“The latter group do tend to reach the summits every time and
activate them successfully, well in most cases anyway.” Ouch!
73
Brian G8ADD
That wasn’t aimed at any one person in particular Brian, I just meant that things can and do go wrong with radio equipment either in transit or on a summit, as you found out yourself quite recently, “ouch” indeed.
PS height is irrelevant on the DC bands!
I believe I quoted vhf/uhf bands, the reason being that those bands tend to be used by most, if only from a handy.
I must admit that if I didn’t have my back problems I would activate everything in sight. It can’t easily be put into words, the experience of sitting on a summit after the ascent and setting up of equipment, then that silent pause when one takes in their surroundings and that feeling of anticipation when the first cq goes out whether on fone or the key, magic.
But I would not travel as far as some of our top activators just for the walk with no radio gear.
