In reply to M0LMP:
In case you missed it Lee…
By the way can James or anyone else give us a precise closing time/date to get emails in to James?
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to All:
My Post which seeems to have disappeared included an astreisked commonly used word for a part of the male anatomy, although there are worse words used on TV before 9pm, I can only think this was distastefull to the Junta, if it offended anyone I apologise.
The reason for my posting was as follows;
Here we have a chance to vote !! something never heard of or tolerated by the MT before, however in true MT style we were told to email the G Association Manager to air our views, ok lets see, how do we email the hardly heard of these days, James McGinty M0ZZ0, hmmmm… many asked the question and were told, unbelievably, click this, follow that link, click on that, download a PDF, go to page 7, section 4 and you will find…blah blah bla, how incredible… could the AM’s email address not be just published in a reply ??, Once again hurdles are placed in front of goal by a select few. Why doesnt SOTA have a contact us page with easy to see and use email addresses etc for all the Officials, wouldnt that be easy ?
The people who cast their Vote do so in a way that the figures could be changed, manipulated, and a true answer will not be found, it should be a public consensus where desires/wishes/wants are publicly on view to all who are concerned for the welfare of SOTA, only then will it be a fair way to decide the humps scenario, and lets face it why shouldnt it be public ??
I personally am in favour of HUMPS, I think it will add more activity to the scheme and open it up to people who wouldnt normally get out in the countryside, or urban countryside, and have fun playing with radio. How can this be bad for SOTA, someone tell me pls.
Regards to all
Lee
Can I just make it clear that we are not currently having a vote.
All emails on any subject related to SOTA are welcome. I do read them all and generally keep up with this reflector.
All views are considered, especially when they conflict with my own. If there is a huge ground swell of opinion for a particular direction then it would be considered in great detail and further views sought.
In this case, despite the number of posts on this reflector, there are a very small number of people advocating change, when viewed as a percentage of participants.
Less than 4% of registered activators / chasers have contributed to this debate, either on the reflector or by email to me. Even allowing for huge anomalies on the databases,(2 calls from same person, occasional participants, no longer active, etc) and cutting the number of apparent participants in half, it still shows less than 7% of people involved in the discussion, and the majority of those favour the status quo.
I am sure I will get a few more emails which may push that figure to 10% or even 15%. My current opinion is that it would be foolish to consider change based on such a small sample.
Further input on this topic will be welcome until the end of the month. After that I think we should give it a rest for a good while as there seems to be little new being said.
73,
James M0ZZO
In reply to M0LMP:
What’s a Junta?
Cris
GM4FAM
In reply to M0LMP:
Lee, as it happens I was out at the time so another member of the MT did the honours. I can assure you that I would have deleted the post myself: the offending word might have been mild by post-watershed standards but we don’t want to set a bad example to the readers that are still of tender years, do we?
With regard to your complaint about finding James’ email address: I just tried it and it involved just four clicks of the mouse and a short scroll-down. All other AM’s can be found the same way, it is actually easier than finding a hill. Your suggestion about a contact page is worth considering but remember this will involve many countries and many AM’s
Your accusation that the figures could be manipulated is, in my opinion a gross and unwarranted insult. Furthermore your abrasive tone seems calculated to generate more heat than light. You seem to have got a little carried away by your ardour, so I must ask you to cool it down a bit, try and remember we are a group of friends with a common passion.
Finally, as a fellow participant, I too favour P100 but I also value the democratic process and if the majority disagree, so be it.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
You are entitled to your opinion Brian as we all are, however how you detected my tone in a bunch of word I will never know.
Nevertheless, I offer you my respect as my elder and if for some reason you have taken my comments personally then I apologise.
As one of the longer participants in the scheme, I am very fond of SOTA and when such comments and may I call it “piffle” are posted without due care and attention, or consideration of “the whole” then it becomes a Junta and the meagre chasers and activators are not considered in any way then my blood boils and spills over onto here. I DO NOT take back any of my comments, nor is this a back peddle in any way, I stand by my comments 100% and if shall be sent off like my good friend Mick HJD then so be it, nothing I can do about it. But hear this, the following is not martyrdom, I am just a Northern bloke, simple at heart but pasionate about somethings and I will always tell you what is on my mind in an honest and straightforward manner. You said that you take my consideration about the figures as a gross and unwarranted insult, then I will voice what many are thinking, tell me how we should trust our AM who openly published that he and only two others had completed the 24 in 24 WB’s successfully. Then just a couple of weeks ago a crack team of activators, including my good friend Steve (inky), who planned for weeks, meticulous map detail, trip schedule and track routes and who are, with all respect, very very fit men who tried valiantly to complete same said task, but failed and not without great effort. I have spoken with one of the team, not Inky, regarding this and he will not be named here for obvious reasons, and he said without shadow of a doubt the previous attempt was fake. I for one know it was, and many others think it and are not prepared to voice their opinion for fear of reflector retribution, but trust someone who tells the truth ? I just might, trust someone who lies ? I will not.
regarding your final comment, I know you are a participant Brian, but you state the value of democratic process… fine but speak to James because he has already said there is no vote, therefore no democracy !!!
Regards
Lee
In reply to G8ADD:
“it delivers some really cracking good ridge walks with up to several P100 summits to activate along the way. It makes it possible to replace the frenetic whistle-stop tours of Marilyns with true and beautiful mountain experiences, with the car staying put all day as the activator clocks up a series of summits on foot while experiencing the structure and diversity of his mountains from a succession of different viewpoints.”
Does the inclusion of Humps do this? I have considered the LD’s because this thread is about G-land and LD is the most mountainous area in G. Including Humps will provide good quality ridge walks such as :-
- Pike O’Blisco, Crinkle Crags, Bowfell and Esk Pike
and 2) Dow Crag, Coniston Old Man and Swirl How
and thats about it!
There are other Humps which can easily be added to existing walks ie Crag Hill with Grisedale Pike and Grasmoor; Ill Bell with Fairfield (but not a natural progression if you are doing St Sunday as well); Dodd with Skiddaw (but trust me, it aint no ridge walk). If you are pedantic you could treat Ullscarf and High Seat as a big addition - but believe me, go after a long dry spell or you may need a wet suit! The rest of the Humps are much like Marilyns, isolated by definition and existing strategies of driving between hills is likely to continue for the majority of activations.
As you may remember, I opened the original discussion about additional summits before Humps was seen as the answer to our prayers, this is the first time I have posted since then. I dont think including Humps will answer my prayers or offer “ridge walks a’plenty”, it will in general provide more hills (hopefully more activations), it will benefit activators far afield from the existing areas (this is a good thing)and it will reduce fuel bills due to more choice (some of us in the past have run out of local hills, ie. within 150 mile round trip). It will tend to encourage the continuation of present strategies. Humps yes or no! Well it doesn’t satisfy my original thoughts but goes a small way towards it. As I said before, I reckon the DL’s have it right. So if we advocate change, let us do so “with our eyes wide open”, else let it be?
73 Ian
In reply to M0LMP:
Well said Lee.
I too also have a problem with the WB 24/24 claim. I have done all the summits and can not see how it can be done in 24 hours. I so wanted the last attempt to succeed and felt if anyone was going to do it, it would have been the last team to try.
Unless it can be proved otherwise I also feel it was a fake and a lie and therefore I also don’t trust that my response I gave in an email will be acted upon accordingly and feel no matter what people request it will just be doctored to suit.
In reply to GM4FAM:
What’s a Junta?
Junta is a Spanish and Portuguese word meaning committee - hardly the insult I suspect was intended! 
73 de Les, G3VQO
In reply to M0LMP:
Lee, the last thing that I will ever want from anybody is respect as an elder. There is nothing special about getting old, it just takes a long time, and if I can’t earn respect for a better reason than that then I will just go without!
I would also point out that Mick HJD was not sent off, he went of his own volition and is missed.
I do not wish to enter into discussion of the 24/24 issue, I don’t possess the full facts about either the failed effort or the previous one, but I am experienced enough to know that even amongst the highly fit there are different levels of accomplishment and that external factors can throw a spanner in the works. Accusations of bad faith on the grounds that a fit party on another occasion failed to repeat the success of an earlier party is occupying very shaky ground and could well be actionable. I therefore intend to close the topic before it gets under way, and if you have any direct evidence of bad faith then it should be put to the MT in private.
The same must be said for accusations that the figures will be manipulated. That is not just an accusation of wrong doing, it is an accusation of the intent to do wrong, and if you have any evidence of wrongdoing or intent then it again should be communicated in private to the MT. If you don’t trust the MT (and I know of no reason why you shouldn’t) then send it to me, and if you don’t trust me then I can only suggest you air it on another site. I have no intention of allowing this site to be drawn into an action for libel.
Lee, I know and respect the northern attitude to plain speaking, I have no intention of suppressing plain speech but there is a fine line between plain and imflammatory and I intend to hold that line whatever it takes.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G7KXV:
Ian, you missed out a couple of really testing ones:
-
the Ennerdale Skyline, already a great challenge and as far as I know not yet done for SOTA although I have walked it in the past and I am sure others here have.
-
the Copeland Forest circuit, Middle Fell-Seatallan-Haycock-Steeple-Red Pike-Yewbarrow.
There are summits in common with 1) but the Buttermere Skyline also looks good!
Your first one I would start with Lingmoor Fell LD-040 and finish with High Raise LD-019, though I think it might go better in reverse since you get more done before thoughts of dropping down to the ODG become obtrusive!
Your second one I would begin on Wetherlam (which can’t be much short of a Marilyn) with the car left at Irish Row in the Coppermines Valley, and walk back from Dow on the Walna Scar road.
Just a few thoughts, other walks might show up from looking closely at the map but we have plenty to go on already!
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
Buttermere - Fleetwith Pike - Haystacks - High Stile Ridge - Buttermere
this is an absolutely brilliant day on the fells, having done variations of this on two occassions , the last including activating High Stile.
I’ve only been playong Sota for a few months but I’ve been playing in the mountains for a good few years and I’ll always go for good days like this and if I get to play Sota too - double bonus!
Really should be packing - 5 days on expedition at Fort William beckon! hooray!
In reply to M3WJZ:
Hmmm also helpful if I sign things too!!!
Iain M3WJZ
In reply to G8ADD:
You are right Brian, I am missing something, firstly the Ennerdale skyline does NOT include any Humps, it includes several Marilyns High Stile, Great Gable, Kirk Fell, Pillar. I suppose you could contrive to include Fleetwith Pike, a Hump with its feet in Buttermere, and Crag Fell which is more likely to be done with Lank Rigg, again no footing in Ennerdale.
Your second suggestion is somewhat contrived, Middle Fell could easily be added to Seatallan, Yewbarrow is the first of the Mosedale Horseshoe and would be included with Kirk Fell. All of them you mention are of course Wainwrights which is one of the lists I have promoted and "the MOST STABLE list of all as Alf is now sadly no longer with us.
Your suggestion of the Buttermere skyline is superb but only adds one Hump to High Stile.
I presume your addition of Lingmoor Fell and High Raise be included is a little tongue in cheek, after all both are Marilyns and could be done with Pike O Blisco now, yet nobody elects to include them. When I was fit and a lot younger, I used to walk the route I mentioned and then include Rossett Pike, Pike O Stickle, Harrison Stickle and Pavey Ark before dropping down Mill Gill, that would include an extra Hump (Pike O Stickle) but I wouldn’t have dream’t of contriving to include High Raise, its not a case of seeing whats close and including it, its a case of determining natural lie of the land and progressing across it. I would agree with th inclusion of Pike O’Stickle with High Raise but its not a ridge walk!
Wetherlam is a legitimate addition to the Coniston Fells which I inadvertantly missed off.
I still maintain the inclusion of Humps will NOT produce several viable ridge walks which you appear to salivate over. I am under no illusions. Now using Wainwrights will!!
73 Ian
In reply to G7KXV:
Your earlier post seemed to echo one of my earlier posts, before the thread took a turn for the personal, and I have yet to see a reply or explanation or debate as to what damage will be done by adding the humps to SOTA, I said very early on that more hills means more to do for the activators, thus more for the chasers and hence MORE for SOTA, is this really that bad, what is the definitive problem with adding humps, could the MT perhaps have an input on this one ? Also as Ian quite rightly said, this keeps costs down for activators who are then more inclined to go out more, traveling over 150 miles to do a summit isnt cheap these days !!!
Lee
In reply to G8ADD:
Brian,
The way I was brought up was to respect your elders, as they have life experience avast, and with such experience comes wisdom, decorum, understanding, and of course respect from the younger less wise, if that is wrong then looks like I was ill educated as a child and you will have to blame my parents for that.
Finally in closing, and this will be my last on this whole thread/subject, in your reply to my post you forgot to clarify your standpoint on the democracy statement you made.
Best regards
Lee
In reply to G7KXV:
I don’t see that the Copeland Forest circuit is any more contrived than the Mosedale Horseshoe, in fact I think that Yewbarrow fits in more naturally with the Copeland Forest circuit, it tacks onto the Mosedale Hills rather uncomfortably. It would be nice to be able to choose between Copeland and Mosedale!
I think that while Lingmoor Fell goes well with Pike O’Blisco now, (its been done recently,) nobody would seriously consider adding High Raise to that itinery at present. The Crinkles and Bowfell are a superb walk but the SOTA returns would be small for the effort. If P100 is adopted the situation changes. You would prefer to divert from the line to tack on Esk Pike and then reverse to descend to the natural centre in Langdale, I would prefer to add the Pikes and Pavey for pleasure and divert to High Raise (which I’m afraid I’ve always thought of as a bit of a slag heap!) before descending to Langdale. Its just contrasting styles, nothing important! This may sound silly, but for me having a SOTA reason to add the Crinkles and Bowfell to Blisco is sufficient excuse in itself to change to P100.
Since you admit the sin of forgetting Wetherlam (a lovely hill!) I will admit that I forgot that Brandreth isn’t a HuMP - and I still hate the word HuMP, it lacks gravitas!
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to M0LMP:
Lee, I was brought up the same way, and of course it is a good way to be brought up, but one day I realised I was retired, I looked around and thought “is this it? age, wisdom, what has really changed?” I’m just as daft as I always was and it seemed hollow to be respected for having been daft longer! No, its not wrong as such, but now it seems such a small thing to be respected for, as if I had done nothing else but add to the rings you could count if you cut my head off! Just my skewed way of looking at the world, forget I said it!
With regard to democracy, we are not currently having a vote, opinions are being sounded and the results analysed. Despite that, the hustings are in full swing, opinions are being expressed, persuasive arguments are being marshalled, dare I say tempers are being lost, and in fact the full panoply of democracy is in the process of being aired. In one respect, James has got it right, it would be hard to justify a major change on a small turnout, although I suppose you could invert the argument to say that it would be hard to defend the status quo on such a small turnout. I am afraid the only safe conclusion at present is that the SOTA community seems apathetic. James has set a time limit, and this, too, is correct because this debate should not go on for ever, it is distracting us from our proper business.
I urge everybody with a strong opinion to contact James now. If you don’t contact him, your apathy will also be a statistic!
I hope that answers you, Lee, if it doesn’t then I didn’t understand the question - but don’t let a little disagreement stop you from contributing to the discussion.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
Ive done both the Mosedale Horseshoe and the copeland round and there is no contest for me and many of my peers. The Mosedale horseshoe is one of the classics in the Lakes and deserves its reputation due to the fantastic situations along the ridges, in contrast with Middle Fell and Seatallan which are rounded hills with little comparable interest, but each to their own.
IMHO, Lingmoor and Pike O Blisco are too contrived if we salivate over ridge walks and getting into the fells proper, after all your route crosses a road!! But again each to their own.
However we can agree the Crinkles and Bowfell are a wonderful combination but your assessment of my preference is incorrect, my route does not divert at all, its the only ridge route from Bowfell, to Esk Pike, then drop to Esk Hause and back to Angle Tarn and so on.
All in all, there are some good routes but they are few and far between, I am under no illusions about the number of ridge walks in the Lakes. The benefit of using Humps is in other regions and with the reduction in travelling due to more choice.
Anyway, if they are adopted, I look forward to working you from these LD ridge routes Brian. Happy days and points a plenty.
73 Ian
In reply to G7KXV:
“However we can agree the Crinkles and Bowfell are a wonderful combination but your assessment of my preference is incorrect, my route does not divert at all, its the only ridge route from Bowfell, to Esk Pike, then drop to Esk Hause and back to Angle Tarn and so on.”
I’m the lazy one, straight down the path to Angle Tarn from Ore Gap for me, but if I took your route I would probably gravitate to the Scafells!
Dreams. I was fit once and it is proving a struggle to get back to it, but I dream of going back to the Buttermere and Ennerdale skylines with a rig even if we stay at P150, perhaps we can make it S2S, Ian!
73
Brian G8ADD