What rig for activation?

Hi Bryn

I’m with Steve G1INK and the FT-857. For about £100 more than the 817 you have a 100 watt rig that runs off a 7 AH battery. No contest - unless you don’t want to carry the 8 Kgs weight up the hill. I have both rigs and to me to 857 seems more rugged and is easier to use as the buttons are bigger. The built in beacon feature which can be used as a memory message keyer is also useful for CW activations. This is not fitted to an FT-817.

FT-857 + 7 AH SLAB = 5.5 Kgs (edited)
FT-817 + 3.3 AH LIPO Battery pack = 2.5 Kgs

The ideal solution is to get both rigs if finances allow over time, but if was forced to choose one or t’other I would find the extra £100 and get the FT-857 and sweat a bit more climbing the hills. A good rucksac with hip support helps.

As others have said regarding 40m - 5 watts is very effective on CW but if you don’t use that mode you will struggle to get any contacts at all on 40m SSB, especially at weekends.

73 Phil

Indeed, HF SSB is difficult on 5 watts, although not impossible. In conjunction with appropriate choice of location, time of day, time of year and blessed with favourable conditions, it can be done. Jimmy M3EYP had good success (for instance) from GI at Easter 2008 using 80m SSB, and in August that year from Ben Nevis on 40m SSB.

The internal battery pack I use in the 817 is 2.7Ah, so SLABs or LIPOs are unnecessary for most activations. I do tend to carry SLAB with me for activations, but this is overkill with a 2.7Ah internal pack on a QRP radio, so I should try a few more “SLABless” expeditions.

There are four ways to improve your 817 HF performance:

  1. Replace it with an 857 and increase power
  2. Get an NoV and use 60m
  3. Use 80m in winter
  4. Do CW

For some reason, I never liked the layout of the 857, even though I do really like how the 817 and 897 work. As CW has become my favourite mode of operation, I don’t feel the need to pursue options 1 or 2!

I might do a bit more 80m this winter though.

Tom M1EYP

In reply to M1EYP:

There are four ways to improve your 817 HF performance:

  1. Replace it with an 857 and increase power
  2. Get an NoV and use 60m
  3. Use 80m in winter
  4. Do CW
  1. use a 10 metre (or bigger, they can be found!) roach pole for more antenna height.
  2. try 20 metres, and if the propagation is there, the higher bands.
  3. try PSK31, it loves QRP!
  4. use a judicious amount of speech compression, the W4RT OBP-STD “One Big Punch” for the FT8*7 series has had good reviews. Of course the 85/97s have a speech compressor built in.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to M1EYP:

The internal battery pack I use in the 817 is 2.7Ah, so SLABs or LIPOs are unnecessary for most activations.

But you’re only running 2.5W compared to those using external higher voltage packs on their 817s.

Andy
MM0MFMF

In reply to MM0FMF:

I’m not sure of the relevance of that Andy, if I remember correctly the higher voltage inputs are dropped to 9.6 volts in the rig, anyway. You can in fact run 5 watts from the internal battery pack but you have to select it from the menu.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G4OBK:
Hi Phil,
I also favour the 857 over the 817 for activations. I have both and regret buying the 817 as I no longer use it on summits. My weights are (as used on recent NW activation running 50W for an hour on both summits.)
857 with 4S LIPO 2.5Kg
817 with 3S Lipo 1.5Kg
The 4S battery was 2/3 discharged after the second activation. I can live with the extra Kg in my sac, which usually weighs in at about 11Kgs when all the usual food, water, survival bits and clothing are included.
The bonus of having a 100W rig for shack or mobile use is well worth having over the small increase in sac weight.
73, Frank

In reply to G8ADD:

No, non, nein!

You need around 10.7V for full output. If you apply 13.8V then you don’t get anymore power than on 10.7V but the 817 case gets significantly warmer. It is the fact that you can get around 4.5W from an 817 off much less than 13.8V that makes using (nominal) 11.1V LiPo packs feasible.

Andy
MM0FMF

Hi Frank

Your message really brings home the big weight advantages of LIPO batteries! I think I should look into using them with the FT-857 a little further. The 7 AH SLABs weigh in at 3 Kg - I overestimated the weight in my earlier message which I will now edit. Having now cleaned my specs I can read the scales better!

Another reason for using the higher power 857 is the increased satisfaction gained from making maybe 40+ QSOs on HF rather than a lesser number with the lower power FT-817.

Don’t forget the old adage - “Life’s too short for QRP” adding for SOTA “but not if you damage your health carrying large SLABS up mountains” !

73 Phil

In reply to G4ZHI:

I regularly use a FT-817 with a separate amplifier (approx 40W) running off 4.5 Ah SLABs with either resonant dipoles for 80/60/40 metres or a 20 metre ground plane vertical with good results, I only use ssb. I also have a FT-597 (using its internal battery) which I occasionally took out before having the amplifier.

If I was starting out now (hindsight and experience is a wonderful thing) I would definitely go for a FT-857 plus Li-po battery pack (a very good transceiver I use mobile), again with resonant antennas for ease of set-up and reliability; less connections, no tuner to adjust, higher power output in one unit and greater power to weight ratio.

Carolyn (G6WRW)

Andy,

I always* run 5w from my 817, even when using only the internal battery pack.

Tom M1EYP

(* Backpackers contests excepted)

In reply to M1EYP:

I always* run 5w

You’ve measured it then Tom? Or do you just assume that by having it on the 5W setting it gives 5W? :wink:

The internal pack is either 8x AA cells in a holder or a shrink wrapped pack of 8x tagged AA cells.

8 x 1.2V = 9.6V which is not enough for 5W.

See The KA7OEI FT-817 pages - Optimizing power consumption when operating on batteries

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:

I think I read that if the power icon is blinking, it means you’re trying to run 5W but not managing it. Not 100% sure on that though.

In reply to MM0FMF:

Ja, Da, yes!

Measured with the simple power meter published in PW every year for their 2 metre QRP contest, internal pack, 4.9 watts O/P. I’ll concede that there might be differences between samples but that’s what I measured. The case gets warm because in line with the power socket but not the battery pack there is a voltage regulator, which means that if you go to the maximum input voltage (16 volts or so if I remember correctly) you still only get 4.9 watts but more heat.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:
Brian,
Interesting power output results. The best Richard (G4ERP) and I could achieve on our 817s (about 3 year old now)was 3.2watts maximum on supplied 9.6V 1400mAh internal Ni-Mh pack,(set to maximum output) and 4.8Watts on external 12V.
There is probably quite a variation in internal setup and models.
73,
Frank

In reply to M0FFX:

I think I read that if the power icon is blinking, it means you’re trying to run 5W but not managing it.

Close but no cigar.

The power icon blinks when the measured voltage drops below a certain level. (Can’t remember without seeing notes at home). And that’s all it means. The measured voltage is below a preset level. The indication is you MIGHT NOT be getting full power.

Depending on how far below that preset level is what affects the output power. In tests I did sometime back, I was getting approx 5W whilst the icon was blinking away blissfully unaware of the output power!

Also the displayed voltage on the 817 front is not the battery terminal voltage. It drops when you draw current on full power transmit irrespective of the supply type. (doesn’t depend on battery or fixed PSU). Measure the terminal voltage on the batteries and compare with the front panel display on load. They are not the same.

So what Yaesu’s software guys tried to achieve and what happens in practice are misleading.

From experience (i.e. measurements made with variable PSU, inline metering, output power meter and proper dummy loads)…

  1. you cannot get 5W from the internal pack.
  2. a flashing power icon does not always mean the output power is below 5W.
  3. you do not need 13.8V on the external DC connector to get 5W out
  4. the voltage displayed is not the battery voltage

All the above were measured on HF only. Expect slightly lower powers on VHF.

It was John G3WGV who first wrote on here about the fact that 817 works to full output on quite a bit less than 13.8V. After measuring how well mine works on lower voltages and getting similar reports from others is what made me realise that 11.1v (3S1P) nominal LiPo cells are they way forward for 817 ops.

However, if I was starting again I’d probably buy an 857 and a 4S1P LiPo cell and use a power diode to drop the initial excess voltage from the cells in the way that Frank G3RMD does. But as I have an 817 (bought before SOTA bit me!) then that’s what I’ll use. The fact it’s a bit nonce on HF SSB is what is making me use CW, which has to be a good thing!

A small survey suggests most 817’s give about 4.5W on HF dropping to 4.2W on UHF. Mine gives 3.9W on 60m possibly because the output filtering is not ideal at that frequency.

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:

“Close but no cigar.”

Put that cigar out! The Yaesu manual says the following:

“If you set the power to five watts, the power level icon is the same as for 2.5 watt operation, but at 5 watts the icon is blinking”

Nothing to do with battery levels, if you look to the right hand bottom side of the screen you will find a battery icon which does blink when power is very low.

Barry GM4TOE
Who is now having to take more whisky in his whisky as Scottish Water have dumped tons of soda ash into our water making is “only suitable for flushing a toilet”. Measured pH of our supply is 11.5

In reply to GM4TOE:

pH 11.5? That’s obscene! It will dissolve aluminium cookware…still, drinking whisky the English way with no water isn’t all bad!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to GM4TOE:

“If you set the power to five watts, the power level icon is the same as for
2.5 watt operation, but at 5 watts the icon is blinking”

Yes. It’s wonderfully unclear, when they say “at 5 watts” they mean “at the 5 watt setting”. No power icon is shown above 11.0V at the 5 watt setting. From measurements the icon flashes when the front panel voltage is below 11.0V and on my 817 the radio is giving well over 4.3W (on 145MHz/FM) at that voltage. It’s down to 3.5W when the voltage is below 10V ISTR.

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:

In reply to GM4TOE:

“If you set the power to five watts, the power level icon is
the same as for
2.5 watt operation, but at 5 watts the icon is blinking”

Hi Barry, Andy

In fact you’re both right…

When using the standard internal NiMH battery pack (max voltage fully charged about 10.1), when the rig is set to the (nominal) 5W level the power level icon blinks to indicate that the higher power level has been selected.

When using an external supply, below about 11.4V (receive mode, actual supply terminal voltage, not as indicated on the display) the power level icon flashes irrespective of the actual power being delivered by the rig when transmitting.

The relationships between transmit frequency, supply voltage and power output for the '817 are weird and wonderful indeed I can provide further discourse on my findings thereon if anyone is sad enough to be interested…

73 de Paul G4MD

I suspect we’re all “sad enough to be interested” Paul. Except that we don’t feel sad at all; it’s only the uneducated cynics outside of our world that think we’re sad.

I must admit to never using a power meter with my 817, just blindly noting the 5, 2.5, 1 or 0.5 watts into my logbook as per setting. Meaning that for the 3w Backpacker contests, and being set to 2.5 watts, I was probably running even less than that.

I understand it is possible to softmod one of the power settings to a custom level. If I wanted a 3 watt setting, could I turn the 2.5w level up, or would I have to turn the 5 watt setting down?

Tom M1EYP