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To-035 in Italia?

hi all…
i made a qso on 14.065 with ik5xct/p on SOTA TO-035 he give…
is there any SOTA association in Italy??

best 73 de Tom
DL1DVE

In reply to DL1DVE:
There is no official SOTA Association in Italy as the Italians wanted to do it their way rather than follow the SOTA rules, but it is a serious gap in the coverage of SOTA in Europe and I hope that one day they will decide to join us.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:
Regarding" SOTA ITALIA",it is a “serious” association. If they are not accepted as a SOTA association by the SOTA committee it is because they have “tougher” rules, a few examples :
at least 45 minutes ascending by foot, maximum power 5 watts, at least 8 qsos per activation and submitting a picture.

73 kurt HB9AFI

In reply to HB9AFI:
No, Kurt, not because the rules are tougher, but because the rules are different. SOTA as an international movement is impossible if we don’t all follow the same rules.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to DL1DVE:

Hi Tom,

Stefano was on Monte Matanna, in the subappennino
of the Toscana (Locator JN53EX).
He just works with 3 Watts.
If you need more info look on www.radioavventura.it

Vy73 Fritz

In reply to G8ADD and HB9AFI:

Hi Kurt and Brian,

Italian rules are different, but not so stupid.

73 Alain F6ENO

In reply to HB9AFI:
Hi Folks!

I have not compared the Italian rules to the SOTA rules, but I don’t like orthodox, angular opinions, flat refusals. I assume, that our Italian friends did not “dilute” willingly the conditions/rules of valid activation. I did not read in G8ADD’s note any specific substantial difference from the official (i.e. English) SOTA rules. Brian, unfortunately, did not specify any Italian lightening or any rule obviously contradicting with the English analogue. Therefore, those may happend to be more reasunable and fair-minded than the English ones are, thus in lack of considerable argumentation I absolutely agree with HB9AFI Kurt!

Why? Let’s assume the following example: you run in the 100m competition bare feet with 20 kg. extra weight in your backpack and “in reverse gear” … Otherwise you obey each and every rules of track events (running) rigorously. What if you manage to cover the distaresult is 9.00" ? My opinion is that you made a valid world record!

Why? Just because you did not use any dopping or any non-permissible aid! Maybe running in “reverse gear” with a heavy backpack makes you “somewhat” handicapped compared to the rest of the competitors. Maybe it’s funny, maybe it’s unusual, but you did it faster than the competitors running in traditional way! There’s a worldwide known analogy: in 1964 Richard Fosbury introduced the “Fosbury flop” in high jump. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Fosbury ) >>> High jump rules stipulate only that competitors may only jump off one foot at takeoff: there is no rule governing how a competitor crosses the bar, so long as he or she goes over it.<ref=USA Track & Field, and IAAF Rule 182/> <<<

This was my 2 cents…

73: Jóska, HA5CW.

In reply to HA5CW:

I have not compared the Italian rules to the SOTA rules,

Jóska

Perhaps therein lies the weakness in your case?

73

Richard
G3CWI

In reply to G3CWI:
Dear Richard!

Maybe. I don’t doubt it. Unfortunately I do not speak Italian. Maybe, I ought to have made some research work in order to form a better justified opinion. However others (like HB9AFI) expressing their opinion may have done it.

In this case we reached back to the stove: we have a pair of contradicting opinions to choose from. I chose Kurt’s opinion. This is the freedom of opinion.

BTW: it does not annulate the fitting of the entire opinion if a part of that is questionable, I think…

73: Joska, HA5CW

In reply to HA5CW:

Joska, I have made no value judgement about whether the Italian rules are better or worse than the official SOTA rules. TBH I regard that as just not relevant. What IS relevant is that the Italians decided to use rules with significant differences to the official SOTA rules. This makes the Italian SOTA incompatible with SOTA as the rest of us know it. The Management team at the time (it was before I joined the team) took the decision that comparing activations using the Italian rules with activations using the already well established official SOTA rules would be almost meaningless.

Compare it with something like a certain nation joining in the international sport of football (soccer) but wanting to play without the offside rule and in four quarters instead of two halves, do you see the analogy?

My own personal opinion, as a participant in SOTA rather than as a member of the MT, is that the Italians should form a SOTA Association using the same rules that the rest of us use, and continue with their own version of SOTA as an Association-based award scheme. The Italians have some very fine mountains and many enthusiastic hams, their presence would strengthen SOTA.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to HA5CW:

Hi all,

I think it is a pitty that italians have their own SOTA

Overall, their rules are less stringent, and both side should try to smooth differences.
But we know that it is not possible.

Alain F6ENO

In reply to G8ADD:
Hello Brian!

The Management team … took the decision that comparing activations using the Italian rules with activations using the already well established official SOTA rules would be almost meaningless. <<<

Do I understand you right? Did MT reject comparing the Italian and English rules? Just because this would mean that MT rejected adopting the Italian SOTA Society simply without reading their constitution !!!

I don’t know if our Italian friends want to omit off-side rule and play 4 quarters or not. But returning to your analogy: If the law stipuletes a limit of Euro-4 standard air pollutant emission category for using a car, it does not exclude using the stricter Euro-5 or Euro-6 category ones, does it? Certainly not! That is Italian rules may be overfulfiling (i.e. be more strict) each and every English SOTA rules without hurting any of those! Let me not explain the theory of sets…

73: Joska, HA5CW

In reply to G8ADD:
Right on Brian!

For the Italians to get the ‘ball-up-and-running’ the simple solution is for then as you said to adopt the existing SOTA format (which allows them to join the rest of the SOTA community of Activators & Chasers) and if they wish to run their own specialised higher level with a higher summit qualification requirement - fine!

I suppose a wee problem is when some of us Activators visit ‘I’ Land to what standard do we work too? Though don’t see this as a problem as we could go for the normal SOTA level or if we fancy the higher specialised Italian level which would appear to satisfy both?

Just my ‘tuppence-worth’!

Jack
GM4COX

In reply to HA5CW:

No, Joska, you seem to have taken totally the wrong meaning from me!

The MT compared the proposed Italian rules with the established official SOTA rules and decided that they diverged too far from the official rules. At no point did I say or even intend to imply that the MT rejected the Italian rules without comparing them. This would be a nonsense! In fact the MT closely compared the two rule sets and did not make a hasty decision. The meaning of what I said, as quoted in your post, is that an activation made under Italian rules would be so different to a SOTA activation that it would be meaningless to score both types of activation on the same table. It would be like saying that one cup of tea is as hot as another cup of tea is sweet!

Joska, you seem to be angry that the MT would not accept the Italian changes to the rules. Tell me, have you studied the Italian rules? Have you thought about how the Italian rules would change the way you activate? Do you think that the Italian rules would work in other countries? For instance, the Italians require photographic proof that you were on the summit, which is OK if the sun is shining, but in the UK we frequently activate from inside a cloud and a photograph would show very little by way of proof. Kurt tells us that the Italians require at least 45 minutes approach on foot, but time does not really equate to distance, some people are faster on the ground than others, a fell runner can go a very long way in forty-five minutes, and some conditions make you much slower than usual - ice, for instance - so this 45 minute requirement is meaningless. It takes me about ten minutes to reach the summit of G/CE-002 from the car park. If we adopted the Italian rules I would have to sit down and have my lunch during the ascent to make my ascent time fit the rules! :slight_smile:

No, Joska, we do not need set theory here, just commonsense. You don’t try and join an organisation but tell them that you won’t work to their rules because you prefer your own, do you?

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

I have received a clarification from a member of the MT who took part in the talks with the Italians. In fact the MT at the time were prepared to accept many of the Italians proposed rules as recommendations. I am told that the “sticking point” was that the Italians had located their summits by the IARU locator system and were not prepared to “waste time” and make the effort to convert these locations to the standard format of latitude and longitude.

It seems to me that with a bit of good will the Italians could still join in the international SOTA program, perhaps lightening the work load by joining in by one call area at a time, or as Italy has many summits, as more than one Association. If they do join us I am sure everybody agrees that they would be very welcome!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

I am told that the “sticking point” was
that the Italians had located their summits by the IARU locator system
and were not prepared to “waste time” and make the effort to
convert these locations to the standard format of latitude and
longitude.

This big problem could be solved in one mouse click…

73 Alain F6ENO

In reply to F6ENO:

True! I’d do it myself for them. :slight_smile:

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

It’s not quite that simple. Have you seen how large a locator square is? Using the notation adopted by the Italians would lead to potential uncertainties as to which summit was which. It is quite possible that there could be two or more summits in the same square. For example, in the Lakes, High Street, Stoney Cove Pike and Harter Fell are all in IO84jn.

73

Richard
G3CWI

In reply to G3CWI:
Are we allowing HuMPs now Richard ? :wink:
Harter Fell (long Sleddale) is not a SOTA summit - it was demoted.
Harter Fell (Eskdale) is certainly not in that square.

Roger G4OWG :slight_smile:

In reply to G4OWG:

Just shows how confusing things could be!