Hah! I didn’t want to show off. It must be a first for me to work someone on 2m and 10m on the same activation. Thanks for the S2S.
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Damnation! Foiled again! I hope Andy can correect that!
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I asked for it on the 28 February.
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Hi Tom
I experienced that today on G/CE-003 - Sporadic E working well and 10 logged on FT8 but only 1 SSB
I wonder if it’s partly because the Es is a bit patchy and the signals aren’t as strong as in some years. I think Es works best when the solar activity is lower.
Rick
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FT8 experts should skip this, unless you want to correct my mistakes
This thread has prompted me to find out the technical reasons why FT8 does so well in poor conditions compared to CW. Here’s what I found:
• Uses GFSK modulation (robust with interference) c.f. A1A CW, an AM mode
• ~50Hz bandwidth (good noise immunity) c.f. CW ~200Hz b/w (less immune)
• Uses Forward Error Correction (to avoid resends) c.f. CW no FEC, operator resends (if you’re lucky)
• Decode possible down to SNR -21dB c.f. CW SNR -14dB with skilled operator
• Machine decoding (no distractions!) c.f. human decoding (summit brain freeze, etc)
• Typ. QSO ~105 s c.f. SOTA CW QSO 30-60 s (incl. pile-up resolutions)
This wasn’t an exhaustive search, so there could be other technical advantages.
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I don’t see any mistakes!
However, the real experience is different. Yesterday was typical. In around 30 minutes on the summit yesterday, I made one QSO on FT4, and three on FT8. Later that evening I was on CW and made 86 QSOs in 90 minutes!
Lots of contextual differences that make the comparison unscientific of course, but when there’s activity around, FT8/FT4 is much slower than legacy modes with regard to QSO rates.
The conversation has departed somewhat from my initial query, the main part of which was wondering why the once thriving 28.180 FT4 frequency has been largely silent of late, while the 28.074 FT8 QRG is as busy as ever.
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What modes does the activator use in the challenge?
Just log in to the SOTA database and go to the log of the activator in question. You can see whatever modes were used for each QSO of each activation.
In my case, 100% CW/SSB/FM…
Pete
WA7JTM
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If I am at home listening I’ll be on 28.074 FT8 because that’s where the most stations are. I’ll have FT8 running in the background, on a second monitor, and if something interesting comes up, I’ll work them.
When I am on a summit I’ll call on FT8 hoping others are applying the same technique.
When 10m is open to anywhere, there will be FT8 stations calling and my small QRP station running FT8CN has a good chance of adding them to my challenge log. From my part of the world this is normally JA - and there is no shortage of unique call signs there 
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Hi Pete, the problem, as I see is, if you want to see the breakdown by modes for a particular activator in the 10m Challenge Activator Results, you would need manually to check all of his/her 2024 logs (in some cases, probably running to 100s of logs by the end of the year) and somehow calculate the average breakdown. A mammoth task. As I understand it, some are asking if the SOTA database can or could do this.
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Hi Tom
Completely agree with you.
Because I am a 99% CW guy, I confess that during 2023 I started to feel quite bored due (with rare exceptions) to the low activity on CW.
When the idea of the 10m challenge came up, I thought it would be a great opportunity to shake the hive and start running again.
To the CW I added SSB and had many really entertaining activations.
But lately I wonder, “Are the conditions really bad?” Always before CQ I listen to the beacon portion and I listen to them very well hoping to make several QSOs on CW. In short, I keep calling and with the exception of some usual chasers (saviors), the log is quite poor.
I live in zone 3 of Japan, which after zone 1 is the most densely populated and I am not exaggerating if I say that the fingers of one hand are enough for me to count the QSOs with people from this region in the 10m band.
I have read countless times from SSB and CW operators unfair and destructive criticism of FT8, making it responsible for the loss of activity in other modes.
I repeat, the 10m beacons are healthy and strong. And on the contrary, CW-SSB operators are conspicuous by their absence.
73, JP3PPL
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This explains a lot for me. When I activate a local summit, I most often do check if 10m appears to be open, and will in any case post an alert that I’m calling (SSB) on 10m. What usually happens is that 1 or 2 10m die-hards will return my calls, and then … nothing. Then, I tune around and hear virtually no SSB signals on the band, from which I’ve recently been assuming that the band is dead. I never thought of listening out for beacons - must download a list of 'em.
But anyway, now I’m led to see that, no the band isn’t dead, it’s just that half the world has squeezed itself into something like a 3kHz bandwidth of a nearly 2MHz band, leaving the rest mostly empty, in order to score maximum DXCC, whatever, by using FT8. And people say the world is going to hell in a handcart - what do they know?
So, unless I jump on the same bandwagon, I can forget about the 10m Challenge; fair enough, more time for other pastimes.
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10m FM sometimes yields contacts.
You can also tune around the FM repeater section of the band to see if there’s any activity to get an idea of propagation or ask someone to try simplex.
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On my last couple of activations I’ve had several EU QSOs on 10m CW, presumably Es. Earlier in the year 10m was guaranteed to get several US stations but that has tailed off due to the summer ionospheric doldrums. As we move away from the solstice that should pick up again. So I’d say don’t give up on 10m.
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28mhz Challenge.
All my contacts are either CW or SSB. I have no FT8 here, Tried it and soon got bored with it. My antenna for 28mhz is a Vertical tuned for the band, or an 80 to 10 home made Doublet.
Don GW0PLP,
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Hi Richard, you beat me to this comment.
Speaking from a European point of view, at the moment most 10m contacts are being made by Sporadic E propagation because for the last two months the F2 3000km MUF has rarely got up to 28 MHz. Today it is fighting to reach 21MHz. Once we have the MUF sat as an almost level line all day long at up to 40MHz, as we did a few months ago, the “Easy DX” into the US, Japan and Oceania will hopefully come back (on all modes).
Here’s hoping.
73 Ed.
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Beacons: I copied several this morning, mostly from Spain and Italy, some were peaking at 9++, but no SSB activity and no SOTA Spots for ten at the time - and against my natural inclinations I checked CW too, finding just one weak station that was too fast for me! So from the UK ten was open to the western Med but uninhabited except perhaps for the computer operators. Now the band is not a complete loss - in the Spring it was alive with lovely DX, and so far this month I have had 17 successful chases (SSB of course) dominated by getting 7 on the 2nd, so perseverence can be rewarded, but it seems that for many sporadic E is too tame and they are hibernating waiting for the band to spring back to DX life in September! IIWII, I refuse to let my computer or phone do my work for me so I shall just plod on with what I like.
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I never plan to activate just for 10m. Normally I do at least one other HF band, usually 30m (yesterday was an exception because I ran out of time with so many 2m FM chasers). If you have a multi-band antenna, it’s no trouble to try 10m, perhaps at the start and end of your on-summit time. The nice thing about the 2024 10m Challenge – for me - is not the points or ranking but the fact it motivates chasers and other activators to be on a dx band I’ve rarely used before last year.
Brian @G8ADD and Richard @G4TGJ are probably right: the small number of recent EU 10m contacts I’m getting (1500 to 2000km away) may well be due to very-temporary Es via those particular radio paths, and which weren’t there before I left home and were gone once I got home again. I’m not sure if listening to 10m beacons or checking the prop condx ahead of time should decide whether or not to bother – better just to give it a go once on summit.
The uncertainty is part of the challenge. If it were a ‘sure thing’ (like 30m is for me), it would be less interesting and rewarding. I was getting a bit blasé earlier this year raking in those transatlantic contacts time after time.
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Richard @G4TGJ, Brian @G8ADD and Andy @G8CPZ - yes, I almost always have a multi-band antenna with me: one of the little HF Pro II vertical, or a linked dipole, or an OCFD. I have no problems tuning onto 10m, it’s just a bit disheartening to find the band empty of squeaky voices - I don’t do CW.
As far as propagation goes, well I’m an eternal optimist there - somehow all this talk of MUF and Es and CME’s and whatnot just doesn’t jell with my brain, even though I know very well what they are and what they do. I guess I’m just a “suck it and see” type.
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I’ll be the first to say “whoopee” when it does, Ed 
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I used to think 30m was a sure thing. Between October and March I was getting huge numbers on the band with stations in the UK, all over Europe and also the occasional one from the US. It would be non stop for an hour. Now it’s often just a handful and I have to work to get them (i.e. have to call CQ repeatedly). So I don’t think any band is ever a sure thing.
That’s why we do it. If we could guarantee contacts all over the world it wouldn’t be very interesting. People often ask why we don’t just use Skype or network radio. They just don’t get what the hobby is about. It isn’t about talking to people!
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