In reply to G8ADD:
Brian
Look back in the thread 
I provided a URL yesterday.
Roger G4OWG
In reply to all fishermen;
If you want to âCarpâ Iâve found sweetcorn and wheatabix works quite well.
Roger G4OWG
ps After looking after my 19 month old grand-daughter today you probably realize I am on my medication now (Morrisons Rioja) so serious responses tomorrow. Be warned I will not hold back.
In reply to G4OWG:
Golly, I had to go back a long way! Thanks, Roger.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
Re HuMPs - if we apply European norms, then a 100m prominence is a more logical parameter than the 150m used for Marilyns, the latter being nothing more than an approximate equivalent to the imperial 500 feet. As someone who is dimensionally ambidextrous though, it is an irrelevance to me, even though I am well known for positioning papers in line with the edge of the desk and similarly like round figures. Confused - you should be. Go on Brian, open a bottle like Roger, it will all become clearâŚ
73, Gerald
P.S. If you want to feel depressed, look at Sundayâs alerts and see that Joerg DG0JMB has posted for 6 summits and a total of 38 points⌠Whereâs my drink?
In reply to G4OIG:
It took a couple of glasses of single malt âŚ!
I have been thoroughly metricated since the 60s but have an emotional attachment to feet, a Munro makes no sense in metric units, does it?
The only clear answer I have is that I chose to play SOTA in the form that was presented and have no problem with continuing to play, its a game, it doesnât have to make sense, or the offside rule wouldnât have been invented!
Slainte!
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
Yes Brian, SOTA obviously will continue as-is while we discuss and provaracate over the issue raised by Mick. It doesnât have to be logical or set up to rounded metric figures - I was just in a wind-up mood, Hi! After all, if we all worked to rounded metric figures, weâd have been activating HuMPs from the start with activation within a nice rounded 10m vertical height⌠now that would cause a problem on some summits, especially on HF!
73, Gerald
In reply to all:
There seem to be quite a few issues raised in this thread.
1 The Eco/Green card â this is just a red herring put in as bait by a master fisherman, Surprised how many bit. My 8 farthings worth, there is only one sure cure for global warming and that is restoring the CO2 filter (equatorial rain forrest) either side of the equator. Anything else is just tinkering.
2 Winter bonus for one pointers â canât see any need myself â there are plenty of activations in the bonus seasons â the fall off is in the summer. More pronounced this year, I suspect, because of the foul weather. But this trend has occurred every year since I started in 2002. I donât have the figures, and I suspect others commenting donât either, but looking at Sotawatch to see what Iâve missed when getting in from work , there are no shortages of activations even from UK activators.
3 The extension of the list of summits â I am neither for or against this â I feel it might increase activations initially as there would be less traveling for those in Marilyn free areas. I only suggested HuMPS because it is a documented list in the same format as the RHB. Indeed it was formulated by members of the Yahoo RHB group.
4 The hidden agenda â this was let slip by Mike DSP. From the beginning there have been moans about the âunelected managementâ. The situation is quite clear â if you invent something you have the rights to do with it what you will. I prefer this âbenign dictatorshipâ approach as it has a moderating effect on âchange for changes sakeâ. I suggest we all know of organizations/clubs which have fallen by the wayside when the â I would do it this wayâ protagonists are changing every five minutes due to fall outs. Iâm even tempted to say there is no such thing as true democracy. Even the ancient Greeks, who allegedly invented it , were not averse to liquidating any that opposed the majority view, which in reality was a minority view as only the rich voted.
It is my hope that the âmanagementâ will take note of ideas and concerns expressed on this reflector. But I feel it is up to them to make the decisions. They must of course accept full blame if they make the wrong ones.
So my opinion is keep the âstatus quoâ but please teach them a few more chords
Roger G4OWG
I have tried to keep away from this topic up until now but after noticing that there are 79 entries I had to read it and see what all the fuss is about.
I agree entirely with Barryâs (GM4TOE) view on not relaxing the 1 year limit on activating any hill. Personally I think one visit a year is more than enough even to my favourite hills.
There is no doubt that the world is facing an environmental problem but lets get real about it, travelling a few extra miles to a new hill is nothing compare to the daily environmental cost of the services, food etc that we now demand. If we want to make a difference then we need to tackle the big issues not tinker with the insignificant bits.
One of the great benefits of SOTA is that it encourages people to go out and explore hills that they probably wouldnât have dreamt of exploring otherwise. I think it has been very successful in that respect, lets keep it that way.
Iâm not sure if the winter bonus should be extended to 1 point summits. In fact Iâm probably in favour of scrapping the winter bonus altogether. Iâve activated many summits in vile conditions in summer (yesterday morning for example!) and had many glorious sunny mild days in January. The seasonal argument is just not that well defined.
The Marilyn system for SOTA tops works well. It provides a clearly defined criteria for a top unlike the vague and often contentious definition of Scottish Munros. Yes, it may be possible to do an extraordinary number of hills within a few hours in some countries but why should we allow this to lower our standards. The question is why are the summit definitions in other countries not up to our standard?
I believe that SOTA has taken off to a degree that is far beyond the expectations of its creators. This is a testament to the fact that the current rules work well. As Barry says â if it ainât brokeâŚ
Robin, GM7PKT.
In reply to GM7PKT:
Iâm not sure if the winter bonus should be extended to 1 point
summits. In fact Iâm probably in favour of scrapping the winter bonus
altogether. Iâve activated many summits in vile conditions in summer
(yesterday morning for example!) and had many glorious sunny mild days
in January. The seasonal argument is just not that well defined.
A very good point indeed Robin, and yes, if there is to be no winter bonus on single point summits, then scrap the winter bonus on the rest, at least that way all activators get equal treatment, be they on a mountain, or a molehill.
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to GW0DSP:
if there is to be no winter
bonus on single point summits, then scrap the winter bonus on the
rest, at least that way all activators get equal treatment, be they on
a mountain, or a molehill.
In my experience Mike there are some darn easy mountains and some darn arduous molehills! If someone wants to work the system, then theyâll choose the easiest and leave the difficult ones.
Personally I think the winter bonus is a very good idea and I am sure that it does encourage people out when the weather is poor. I know the seasons are not always well defined and this year we are all at sixes and sevens because the Gulf Stream is in the wrong place. I do not see this becoming the norm. Memories of horizontal driving snow and frozen feet on Foel Goch NW-039 tell me that last winter was not the same as this summer, even with the bad weather weâve had recently. Okay we were fortunate in early February when I did 3 summits in South Wales and got sun burnt, but a couple of weeks later I well remember getting thoroughly soaked when John BVE and I did Moel Famau and Foel Fenlli together. The winter bonus dates are arbitory and they have to be - the MT arenât clairvoyant!
I can only get a couple of summits in in a day in winter due to limited daylight hours, three at best with tight scheduling. The winter bonus helps encourage me out of bed at 3.00 a.m. so I can get to my first parking spot by 7.00 a.m. just as dawn is breaking.
I appreciate that I see this all from a viewpoint where I have very few local summits. The nearest is CE-005 which is 53 miles away by road and it takes over an hour to get there. The next is CE-004 which is 55 miles away, taking about an hour. On average I now drive 350 miles on an activation day. Those living in areas surrounded by summits will obviously have a different perspective.
Having thought about what scrapping the winter bonus would mean to me, I think my response might be to try to get more summits activated in a day or possibly go for higher point summits. Either way this would be likely to significantly reduce my summit time which could possibly mean ditching HF. Others would react in different ways. Overall I am of the opinion that scrapping the winter bonus would reduce activity not increase it.
73, Gerald
In the very early days of my own participation in SOTA, and long before any involvement with the MT side of things, I did raise a question over the rationale of the Winter Bonus. I was concerned over the safety aspect.
Some subsequent experience of actually walking and activating at various times throughout the year certainly changed my view, as did the reality of modal operating habits in the programme.
In 2002, with Jimmy aged 9 and Liam aged 5, I had this idea of just doing SOTA on nice days in the summer. It did not take me long to realise that there were to be some lovely and beautiful days for walking in winter, and some horrid ones in summer. So I soon switched to all year round participation!
I had no intention whatsoever of dragging the kids up the high fells in winter, so I decided to play the system with the winter bonus. I realised that easy safe* summits (* all usual disclaimers etc) could be used to scoop up a good volume of these winter bonuses. Shining Tor was my obvious local one, and with careful planning and an eye on the weather, the likes of Black Hill, Kinder Scout and Pendle Hill were also there for the taking.
My tactics seemed to be the same as other activators, and soon there would be groups of 2, 3 or 4 of us meeting up for joint activations on pairs of easy 2-point summits such as Moel Famau/Foel Fenlli, Stiperstones/Long Mynd, Cyrn-y-Brain/Moel y Gamelin, Titterstone Clee Hill/Brown Clee Hill etc. We would pick what looked like a decent day weather wise, and go out and get ten straightforward points each.
I realised that the Winter Bonus was not tempting people out into danger as I initially feared. It was actually encouraging people to activate in the winter season, but to do so with careful planning, selecting known straightforward routes, and mostly on 2-pointers. More than tempting activators above 500m ASL, the winter bonus was in reality encouraging them to stay below 600m ASL!
I think it has worked rather well over the last five years, and should not be changed.
In reply to M1EYP:
I realised that the Winter Bonus was not tempting people out into
danger as I initially feared. It was actually encouraging people to
activate in the winter season, but to do so with careful planning,
selecting known straightforward routes, and mostly on 2-pointers.
More than tempting activators above 500m ASL, the winter bonus was in
reality encouraging them to stay below 600m ASL!
I fully understand and agree with most of what Gerald and you say Tom and it would be a bad decision to remove the winter bonus, of course it would, BUTâŚyour above statement is an arguement in itself.
If the safety issue was your foremost point of concern, why only award the winter bonus on 2 pointers upwards, right up to 10 pointers? It doesnât make any sense safety wise whatsoever.
Surely by refusing the winter bonus to the activators of single point summits, you are actually dangling a carrot and enticing them onto bigger and potentially more dangerous summits then rewarding them for doing so.
If safety was the main issue, we would surely be best to offer a winter bonus to the 1 point summits, after all is said and done, the winter weather doesnât boycot a summit because nature made it a 1 pointer.
âIf safety was the main issueâŚâ.
It isnât (in the context of this discussion).
I was pointing out my observations of the type of hills favoured by activators making the most out of the winter bonus.
Personal safety is already covered in the SOTA rules without further tinkering with the scoring system. You donât REALLY want extra bonus points for Hope Mountain do you Mike?
In reply to GW0DSP:
I have to agree with Mike on this one. If you get one of the sudden violent changes in winter weather it doesnât matter if you are on a one pointer or a ten pointer, what matters is how quickly and easily you can escape. This should dominate your initial planning. Route selection is very important.
Look at it this way, Snowdon at 3559 feet is worth ten points but the approach from Pen y Pass makes it equivalent in effort to a six pointer from sea level, plus the Miners Track is very sheltered. The actual easiest route is a hands-in-pockets ascent of the railway track but higher up that one is terribly exposed and subject to icing up. At a lower level, Allt Fawr from the Crimea Pass is worth four points but the actual ascent is a one point equivalent and relatively sheltered. I would rather tackle these in reasonable weather in winter than a one or two point summit reached by a long bogtrot! However, I look at these things through hillwalkers eyes and one of the things I value about SOTA is that it makes me think of summits that once I would never have dreamed of climbing because they were too easy or too dull or too close to what I then considered as more worthwhile hills!
Whilst I agree with you, Mike, I do wonder if the carrot you refer to is in some ways a good thing? The higher hills would develope mountain skills in the newcomers (these skills have to come from somewhere!) and be more rewarding in more ways than just the score.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to M1EYP:
You donât REALLY want extra bonus
points for Hope Mountain do you Mike?
No, not at all Tom and well you know it, would I have done Hope Mountain 45 times for 1 point and at the fuel cost if that was the case? Donât be so silly :)⌠BUT why shouldnt an activator living X miles away be tempted to activate Hope or any other 1 pointer during the winter period
What I DO want is a fair system, equal for ALL activators.
Those who do 1 point summits are treated like âthe poor relationâ in the winter time and the current points scheme can only possibly suggest that the system is designed to discourage the activation of 1 point summits throughout the winter months when 5 points can be grabbed for doing 2 point summits.
Itâs simple maths Tom, 1 point or 5? not forgetting the fact that many a 1 pointer are more difficult than some of the 2 point summits.
By SOTAs own success, itâs obvious that the original rules were very well thought out and have worked superbly since the outset, but in my opinion, to offer no winter bonus for 1 point summits was/is wrong and puts out the wrong message.
Mike
In reply to G8ADD:
In reply to GW0DSP:
Whilst I agree with you, Mike, I do wonder if the carrot you refer to
is in some ways a good thing? The higher hills would develope mountain
skills in the newcomers (these skills have to come from somewhere!)
and be more rewarding in more ways than just the score.73
Brian G8ADD
Fair comment Brian, but surely we shouldnât tempt anybody to gain hill climbing skills in the winter, they would be wise to learn the basics in the summer.
you are highly skilled at hill walking and I should imagine that you and many others are hill walkers foremost, who like to carry radio equipment with you and activate the summit you have navigated, but, there is a large proportion of the sota fraternity who are radio ops foremost and hill walkers secondary and only climb a summit to play radio from a high point.
Is it wise to bribe the latter onto 2 point or higher summits in the winter?
73 Mike
Mike,
You are making the same mistake as I did when raising this five years ago. You are looking at what might theoretically happen from a position of inexperience, not what actually does happen.
Have a look at the activation lists of the top activators in G and GW and you will see the patterns to which I am referring. Better still, take a trip to WB-005 (itâs on your list) on a sunny crisp December morning - but donât forget your ice axe or crampons!
Tom
In reply to M1EYP:
Tom, Iâll have to bow to your greater experience as I have only seen half a winter since becoming involved with sota, maybe time will tell and Iâll gain a bit more experience as I go along and visit a greater range of summits (no pun intended).
I donât think Iâll need my ice axe and crampons for WB-005, Iâm sure you only jest?
You picked on an easy 2 point summit, but would you joke about a very difficult 1 point summit.
Anyway, I seem to be chasing my own tail with this one, itâs HJDs fault, he could start a row in an empty house:-)
Mike
In reply to GW0DSP:
Mike I donât think Tom is jesting about WB-005. Have you driven up from Church Stretton to the start of the easy route ? This is one to be avoided if there is snow or ice.
Roger G4OWG
In reply to GW0DSP:
I donât really have an unconditional answer for that, Mike. There are extra skills in winter that you wonât learn in summer, but with the sort of winters we seem to get today you may take a long time to learn them in winter, too! Even Scotland, the home of winter snow and ice climbing, is said to be going short of decent winter conditions (I donât know from first hand, I gave up the more extreme forms of the sport when I became a family man!)
I donât know how it goes now, but when I was a lot younger if you decided to go winter hillwalking you didnât go on a course first (there were few of them) and you probably didnât know anybody more experienced to go out with, you read a few books, probably by Murray, and you just went out with a few mates and did it. It was a steep learning curve but nearly everybody survived!
I would say that a radio op with just a handful of summer ascents under his belt would probably find very little difference between, say, the Stiperstones in winter and in summer as long as he paid attention to the weather forecast and stuck to fine or at least mild weather. Indeed in fine weather with relatively low wind chill the only difference he would notice on a much higher hill with an elevated start point would be withered vegetation and a short day. It is going above the snow line or the freezing line that changes the game in a big way, but even there there is a first time or you donât do it at all.
I suspect that any radio op that does more than a handful of summits despite having got cold, wet and knackered on one or more of them is not doing it just for the radio, he has fallen under the spell of the hills (even if he is not yet conscious of it) and will continue to winter summits and higher summits without any bribery being necessary. What is necessary, then, is not discouragement but information. I donât know but I surmise that a lot if not all of the necessary information is available on the net - but I prefer a book, at least you can swat a mozzy with it! I used to swear by Blackshaw (sp?) but there is probably something more up to date now.
At heart I am ambivalent about bonuses, but if there must be one there is no rational reason to exclude one point hills.
73
Brian G8ADD