In reply to 2E0YYY:
Surely, the number of QSO’s an activator makes during each activation should be >added into the equation.
Absolutely no. It would be extremely reckless for the MT to encourage activity that rewards staying for lengthy periods on a summit.
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to G8ADD:
Brian, if it makes the MT more comfortable, I would have absolutely no objection to a reverse system of the winter bonus points.
The QSO’s made in the Summer months are incorporated into the award and during the winter bonus period, they’re not. Win win in my book.
73 Mike
2E0YYY
In reply to MM0FMF:
In reply to 2E0YYY:
Surely, the number of QSO’s an activator makes during each activation
should be >added into the equation.Absolutely no. It would be extremely reckless for the MT to encourage
activity that rewards staying for lengthy periods on a summit.
But someone who is stuck on a two pointer during a blizzard in the winter bonus period, with three qso’s, hanging on for for a fourth contact to get five points is OK.
Mike
2E0YYY
Interesting thread, a few comments:
I really think rewarding number of activation QSO’s is a BAD idea, for many reasons. For one thing, you’ll encourage activators to carry heavier, higher power radios and bigger antennas - bad, bad, bad. I think the current 4 qso requirement is all that’s needed.
Offering awards that are more weighted to activation makes sense. From my perspective, earning 1000 chaser points is far easier than 100 activation points. Getting 1-10 points for an activation is usually a whole day affair of considerable effort and planning.
73,
Barry N1EU
In reply to MM0FMF:
It would be extremely reckless for the MT to encourage
activity that rewards staying for lengthy periods on a summit.Andy
MM0FMF
I don’t get this at all.
The MT encourage SOTA activity during the winter period, in the highest of mountains, when it must surely be the most hazardous time (winter bonus)?
Is that not reckless also? Should they be encouraging us to walk in the hills at all?
Personally I’d rather there was double points bonus in the summer to get more people out and activating low (safe hills) when the propagation is lousy but there is warmth and long hours of daylight.
In my location, I’ve worked out that, unless I change my lifestyle, it will take me at least 50 years to get to Goatdom. Unfortunately the likely hood of me being around to collect the award are very slim, never mind having the ability to get onto any summits at that time!
Hill walking is a new activity for me and the radio is still the primary reason to go there. If that means I’m activating the same old 1 pointers again and again throughout the year for nil points, so be it. I’ll still be there with the aim of staying as long as conditions and contacts allow regardless of any award scheme. A parallel award that recognises activity, as opposed to shoot and go activations, is welcomed by me.
Pete
In reply to MM0FMF:
Seems to me to be so much easier - and less objectionable - to keep things nice and simple as they are at the moment…
Don’t try to fix what is not broken!
In reply to G4ISJ:
We don’t encourage or support open ended activity Pete.
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to OK2QA:
Hi Ruda & SOTA-eers
This sounds a bit complicated. Why not keep it simple. You COMPLETE the summit by Activating it then Chasing it (or vice-versa). This will give you a compiled score of so many points. You may achieve bonus points for Activating summits outwith your normal Association area/continent? The summit is now COMPLETE - SOTA COMPLETE.
Just some thoughts?
73
Jack (;>)
GM4COX
In reply to OK2QA:
Many activators selflessly activate various summits
more than once in the course of the year to the benefit
of chasers whilst not scoring themselves.
Perhaps an award could be issued to those activators
based on reaching a milestone in points which they did’nt
receive!
Kind regards
Dave
In reply to G4ISJ:
Winter activations are subject to more unreliable weather, lower temperatures, possible snow and ice - and even avalanches, shorter hours of daylight, and what is often forgotten, a reduction in the tourist infrastructure. This places a higher premium on mountain skills which are gained from experience, whether you gain that experience in the old way of reading a few books and then going out to put what you have read into practice, or in the modern way of going on a course. Rule 3.7.4 covers the competence to undertake an expedition and warns on the objective dangers of the mountains. In effect, anybody going onto the hills without adequate equipment and preparation is breaking the rules and could be denied the points that they have earned. However, there are pleasures to be experienced in winter conditions that are denied to the fair-weather-summer-only activators, and it would be wrong to discourage or penalise winter activations. The winter bonus is offered to encourage winter activity by competent activators, and because it is a fixed value it is most attractive at the level of the 2-point summits and on progressively higher summits it becomes proportionally less attractive. In encouraging winter activity - competent winter activity - it encourages winter chasing and prevents SOTA from being a seasonal phenomenon, and thus the program does not suffer an annual loss of steam.
As I see it, and I am talking personally here rather than as a member of the MT, we get relatively little trouble from wardens and their ilk because we can present SOTA as a low impact activity. We set up out of the way of other mountain users, we don’t take up a lot of space or make a lot of noise, nobody gets strangled by aerial wires, and after an hour or so we have gone leaving behind no evidence of our presence. Now it seems to me that setting up on a popular low summit for several hours runs the risk of jeopardising the status quo. I suspect that devising a SOTA award that rewards this type of activation will increase the number of prolongued activations and carries the potential for the sort of controversy that could reduce our freedom of access to the hills for radio purposes. The last thing we would want is a complaint or complaints bringing us to the attention of organisations like the NT and NTS in a negative way.
73
Brian G8ADD
With respect to qso-numbers: Is there really a risk of unsafe op-times on summits? QSO-number in my humble observation is not proportionate to op-time. After about one hour or one and a half there is not much resonance anymore.
Recently I experienced quite a few “dupes” in a third hour, seemingly because the chasers already expected me on a “next” summit during a hit-and-run-tour for collecting a maximum of activator points…
Isn´t it in most cases that everyday-life circumstances limit the available op-time? IMHO to take qso-numbers into account brings less risks for responsible activators than the risks associated with activating more and more summits during a day. I simply enjoy the time on the hill without dismantling before operating ;-)))))
With respect to account qso-numbers I see a bigger problem how to do it. A VHF-activator scratching out 10 instead of 6 qsos may have done “more” good to his chaser audience than an HF-activator increasing his numbers from 10 to 20. But basically I don´t think that an “incentive” to increase qso-chances for chasers is a bad idea (with different responsible upper limits for VHF and HF for safety concerns).
(with reaching mountain goat approximately at the age of 83 I have no horse in the race)
It is not simply a matter of considering the activator’s personal safety. We must also bear in mind the environment and other visitors to the summit. Of course, you can not and should not limit the amount of time an activator may spend on the summit, nor the working conditions (aerials, batteries etc). But I feel that these things should not be actively encouraged with the lure of further awards and extra points.
Speaking as someone who enjoys doing lengthy activations with many QSOs from time to time, I would not want additional reward from this. The reward for the extra QSOs is the extra QSOs themselves.
Tom MO1EYP
The disciplines of activator and chaser are quite different and perhaps the two cannot be combined in an acceptable way to all. Why not have a dual award for say 1000 activator points and 1000 chaser points, possibly a Mountain Sloth Award? We could always have Bronze 1000 + 1000, Silver 2000 + 2000, Gold 3000 + 3000 and Platinum 5000 + 5000. Or any other figures like 1000 + 5000 for bronze, 2000 + 10000 for silver etc.
What ever is decided by the MT, I will hopefully be up for the challenge.
73
Nick G4OOE
In reply to MM0FMF:
In reply to G4ISJ:
We don’t encourage or support open ended activity Pete.
Andy
MM0FMF
This is an interesting thread.
As far as “encouragement or support of open ended activity”, I’m not sure what that means!
A permanent shack on a mountain top, a 4 hour activation, or my overnight tent?(which I’ve done twice in the last couple of months)
To prevent open ended activity should the rules not specify a maximum activation time, of say, not more than 30 minutes or 4 QSOs? (whichever is less).
As DL8MBS has observed, after about one to one and a half hours, QSO’s tend to naturally dry up. The reason I stay put on a summit after that time is to wait for changes in propagation (eg to work Stateside as opposed to Europe) or to spend time seeking out S2S contacts to score a few chaser points.
I still think recognition of contacts whilst activating is a good thing, otherwise the activator award becomes primarily a summit conquering award (mountaineering/hiking) rather than a radio based award, although maybe this is the intention.
72
Pete
In reply to OK2QA: All interesting comments. I have been involved with SOTA for 10 months and would like to weigh in with a W7 Idaho perspective. Speaking only for myself the activation points are my primary motivation, but also understand without chasers, activations are a moot point. Chaser points are nice to get, but I usually only get them when conducting an S2S QSO (maybe an award for S2S contacts?) While there are a large number of SOTA peaks surrounding our metro area which can be activated using 2m simplex, the vast majority of Idaho SOTA peaks require HF capability and a significant investment in time, travel, and fuel to activate. Many of our peaks are remote by anyone’s standard and often require a high clearance 4wd vehicle to get reasonably close (yes, we carry two spare tires) I greatly enjoy the “bonus” season and have earned bonus points at 8 deg F in the winter in Idaho and 97 deg F in Aug in Arizona (I prefer the winter!). As my job requires extensive travel throughout the western US, the Mountain Explorer award is a very attractive goal (6 Associations so far) and activating in 10 associations is being planned. There are at least 4 SOTA activators now in W7 Idaho and a 5th will be earning his first points shortly. Thank you to the MT for making these awards available. 73’s all Scott W7IMC
In reply to G4ISJ:
As far as “encouragement or support of open ended activity”, I’m not
sure what that means!
Pete
I would have thought it was obvious what it means. It means that such activity is not precluded by the rules of the scheme but neither it it explicitly rewarded by awards that rely on such activity.
Like you I have camped out on summits occasionally. The reward came from the experience of seeing the stars and having keen chasers wait up for some extra points after midnight. For me no further reward was sought or required.
The rules of SOTA were (are?) supposed to allow some latitude for interpretation to allow for different styles of operating. I could see a time limit giving rise to all sorts of problems. 4 QSOs in 30 minutes would rarely be possible on 10GHz for example. Such a rule would mean that people would stick to the “popular” bands and that would be to the detriment of SOTA and amateur radio in general.
73
Richard
G3CWI
Hello All
I too agree that numbers of QSOs should not be rewarded, as Tom states surely the pleasure of working lots of people is reward in itself.
With regards time limits, I use 2m SSB, 4m FM and 23cm FM if I can fit all those bands in within half an hour then I would be amazed! After 3 years of SOTAing I would like to think that I have nailed my station set-up but it is not feasible! Plus as Richard says, a time limit would mean 40m CW and 2m FM be the norm, which quite frankly IMHO is dead boring!!
I try to give away points on a multitude of bands and modes! When activating with Dave M0MYA and Geoff 2E0BTR, we would use 80m SSB, 60m SSB, 40m SSB (all by Dave) 2m SSB/FM (By Geoff) then 4m FM, 70cm SSB and 23cm FM by me! If that is not giving chasers a chance then I don’t know what is!!
With regards the Winter Bonus, I like the addition! Yes the summits could be considered more dangerous, but on a crisp winter morning with no cloud in the sky and dew on the ground they are such a nice place to be. Then of course you reach the summit, the wind is howling and the rain kicks in but you have to appropriately layer up! Then of course it is down to the activator to deem what is the right time on a summit!
The only rule I would change is that all 1 pointers in the winter should have a 1 point winter bonus. I have done my fair share of winter activating on both 1 pointers right through to 8 pointers and the single pointers can be so damn cold! Surely that needs to be rewarded but without the full 3 points! Caer Caradoc at 459m ASL is just as cold as Long Mynd at 516!!!
Otherwise the additional award scheme initially suggested at the top of this thread seems OK!
My two pence
Matt G8XYJ
In reply to G4ISJ:
I still think recognition of contacts whilst activating is a good
thing, otherwise the activator award becomes primarily a summit
conquering award (mountaineering/hiking) rather than a radio based
award, although maybe this is the intention.
With a minimum number of contacts specified before an activation becomes qualified the radio basis of the award is beyond question. It may appear that four contacts is setting the bar rather low, but at the time that SOTA was started it was not that easy getting contacts. I used to take an FT290R and an HB9CV on my hill walking outings in the 1980’s and thought I had done well to get two contacts!
For me, SOTA brought two disparate but important elements of my life together. Hill walking and climbing, and amateur radio. This is the unique thing about SOTA - ham radio is a largely sedentary game, hill walking is an energetic outdoor pursuit, yet here they are melded into a single entity. It also appeals to the collecting instinct, collecting contacts and collecting summits! From my viewpoint, SOTA has taken me onto hills that as a hill-walker I would have passed by in search of higher and more remote fare. I can’t speak for the intentions of the founders of SOTA, but I find that for me the balance between hill walking and radio is pretty well ideal. I attain the summit and work stations until they stop calling, then I go down again. If I get plenty of contacts, that is great, if I fail to qualify the activation, well, just being there was enough.
If SOTA is set up to reward anything not stated on the label, it is mobility and fitness. Those who are fit enough can activate more than one summit in a day, sometimes four or five or more, and have a points fest. This is consistent with the rule permitting a point scoring activation of any summit only once in a year. The intention appears to have been to encourage activators to spread their activities around rather than just concentrate on a few favourite locations. Personally, I’m happy with that!
73
Brian G8ADD
Me too. Very well said Brian.
I can claim some of the highest QSO totals from single UK activations. I can also remember some of the desperate struggles to get to 4 contacts in earlier years.
Four contacts is usually easily surpassed these days, certainly on the more popular band/mode combos. But last week in Pembrokeshire, both Jimmy and I were relieved to have got to 4 on more than one occasion on “banker” bands like 20m and 40m, even on CW.
Four remains the correct number in my opinion. And if I want to crack on and make 224 or 369 QSOs (I think they’re my two highest), then there’s nothing to stop me.
Tom MO1EYP
In reply to M1EYP:
The database says for Tom:
2012 SP-013 140
2011 NW-012 369
2010 SP-013 50
2009 SP-013 79
Andy
MM0FMF