M0JLA failed activation of Sugar Loaf

In reply to MM0FMF:

G4VCH reports 5 and 0

Meaningless report.

Good old 'FMF brevity :wink:

Its a bit of an old chestnut this one and I tend to think it all depends on who you listen to. Some folks will quote you with a figure for S0, eg:

http://www.interalia.plus.com/q_tech10.htm

I tend to err on the side of the IARU who have defined levels for calibrating S-meters:

http://webpages.charter.net/dig2bn/RF%20Comm-Elec%20Course%20Student%20Study%20Guides/S-Meter%20Calibration%20&%20IARU%20Standards.pdf

Interestingly an S0 does not exist within the IARU definition by omission: it’s existence is neither confirmed nor denied.

I never give S0 reports, however I’ll sometimes send and S1 and have a mumble about there being no deflection on the meter!

Rod: I’ll bring a few bits of kit along to the club this evening and we can investigate, don’t forget your radio!

73,
Dave M0MYA (back in Angleterre at last!).

In reply to M0MYA:

The S-meter tends to be pretty meaningless on V/UHF, I tend to fall back on the pre S-meter days and give a report by how the signal sounds. A strength 9 by ear may hardly show on the S-meter, a fully readable signal may show zero, so dump the useless things! We could even go to SINPO… 5 megs gave me an ear for SINPO, but other than the hardened denizons of the UK 60 meter band you will find few who have much clue about what it means!

73

Brian G8ADD (who can’t even spell brevitty!)

I guess, once you try to retro-calibrate the (originally entirely subjective) scale, among other problems, you’ll hit that old float-to-integer conversion pickle of when to round up and when to round down…

In reply to M0MYA:

I never give S0 reports

Good man.

That GM7’s calibration chart has to be taken with a significant pinch of salt. Say a whole bucketful! All he has done is taken 6dB off the S1 value. This suggests his S meter reads below S0 when there is no signal i.e. received and internally generated noise only and moves from some rest position to display 0.

I’d respectfully suggest he should set the DC offset on his meter driving circuit so it displays 0 in the presence of no signal. Otherwise we end up quickly approaching the situation with Nigel Tufnel’s Marshall amp in Spinal Tap where things can go to 11!

Nigel Tufnel: “The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and…”

Or perhaps we all need contester’s S-meters…

Contester: Call again.
FMF: MM0FMF
Contester: Call again.
FMF: MM0FMF
Contester: Call again.
FMF: MM0FMF
Contester: Call again.
FMF: MM0FMF
Contester: Call again.
FMF: MM0FMF
Contester: Again one last time.
FMF: MM0FMF
Contester: GM0FMF 59KW. QRZ?

:wink:

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:
Sorry, I didn’t intend stirring up a hornets’ nest. Scientific training tells me that if it is less than 0.5 then it rounds to zero.
Rod

In reply to M0JLA:

True: “In critical cases, ascend” is the rule that was drummed into me yonks ago!

73

Brian G8ADD (who can now spell “brevity” :wink: )

In reply to M0MYA:
Dave,

Thanks for the suggestion and offer of help. I certainly hope to bring it, although I don’t think the radio itself is at fault. I have just been using it on 3.770MHz with our regular Tuesday am net and getting 5 and 9 from local stations. I think the failing must be either in the connections or the siting, although I have had success in the G/WB area with the same kit.

See you later,

Rod

In reply to M0JLA:

Hi Rod,

All understood. It might be prudent to simply bring the all of kit you were using during the failed activation. I’ll bring the antenna analyser so we can check your antenna system too.

In a bit…

Dave M0MYA

In reply to MM0FMF:
Sorry, I didn’t intend stirring up a hornets’ nest. Scientific training tells me that if it is less than 0.5 then it rounds to zero.
Rod

In reply to M0MYA:
Antenna analyser sounds good; not built mine yet.
Rod

In reply to MM0FMF:
Contester: Again one last time.
FMF: MM0FMF
Contester: GM0FMF 59KW. QRZ?

I do hope he is not going to get the points from this kind of QSO. It is just the kind of situation which turns me away from Contesting, hi !!!
I do the odd contest, particularly in order to get a new mode-band slot for DXCC HI! But, some contesters are just pushing the limits of a ‘valid QSO’ beyond acceptable limits!!!
I did listen out for you at the weekend but the skip distance was not favourable; better luck next time.
73 de Ken

In reply to GM0AXY:

I did listen out for you at the weekend but the skip distance was not
favourable; better luck next time.

I did work Jim GM4NTL in Sanquhar which was only 70 miles South whereas you’re about 52 miles SE. So close.

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:
Andy,
I have been advised that there is nothing wrong with my radio or the antennas; just operator trouble! How do I self-spot?

Rod

In reply to M0JLA:

How do I self-spot?

Several ways.

  1. Get a mobile internet connection active on your phone and go to the normal spotting page ( Hiking in the mountains: tips for beginner hikers - Mountain Day ), log in and spot as usual. Some phones may not render the page properly.

  2. Get a mobile internet connection active on your phone and go to Spotlite ( Summits on the Air ). This is a lightweight page that is more likely to render correctly on older phone browsers.

  3. Use the SMS spotting server in HA ( SpotGateway Log ). This will let you spot for the cost of an SMS to Hungary.

  4. Use my UK based SMS spotting server which may be cheaper for you. Send an email with your phone number and callsign to mm0fmf AT hotmail.com and I will do the rest.

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:
Andy,
Thanks very much.
email is dead at present I will email you when it recovers.

Rod

In reply to M0JLA:

Sorry, I didn’t intend stirring up a hornets’ nest. Scientific
training tells me that if it is less than 0.5 then it rounds to zero.

When we give a “5/9” report we are really giving the RS portion of the “RST” reporting system (the “T” part being inappropriate for voice modes). This is an accepted convention in the world of amateur radio. A quick glance at any reference that explains the RST system clearly shows that there is no such thing as an S0.

The following example is taken from the foundation licence book:

“…and signal strength on a 9 point scale from S1 -Faint signals, barely perceptible to S9 - Extremely strong signals”.

Q.E.D and 73,

Dave M0MYA

References:
Betts, A (2001). Foundation Licence Now!. 4th ed. Potters Bar: Radio Society of Great Britain. p23.

In reply to M0MYA:
It seems to me that two different things are being conflated here. A signal report can be either a reading from an S-meter or an arbitrary scale of loudness, S or QRK. QRK being arbitary it has no need to follow the scientific necessity of having an origin, there is no QRK zero as an inaudible signal has no loudness, simply you don’t know if it is there or not. Experience at 2 metres and above shows that a signal can be quite readable without showing any indication on the S-meter, a reading of S0 on the meter may make no sense in terms of QRK but it is an exact reading of the meter for all that. This is why on 2 metres and above I will always give the report in terms of QRK unless I am being asked for a comparative report…and in QRK I won’t give a report of S0.

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

I don’t see the point in having a meter and then ignoring it, so I intend continuing to report readability as perceived and signal strength as measured.

73

Rod

A simple way around it that keeps everyone happy is to give the S reading as shown on your 817 except when it is below 1. In that case, give it as 1!

Tom M1EYP

In reply to M0JLA:

I don’t see the point in having a meter and then ignoring it, so I
intend continuing to report readability as perceived and signal
strength as measured.

You are forgetting two things. The meter is a scientific instrument, as such it needs calibrating and is subject to error. The definition of signal report says that the lowest report of a heard signal is S1.

So, continue to report S0 if you like but expect to be treated as the King in the invisible clothes.

Colin - G8TMV