I/G4OBK/P Activation I/TO-314 01/07/15 null and void

Unfortunately I will be deleting my activation log for last weeks activation of I/TO-314 Le Cornate.

I did visit the lat-long as quoted in the SOTA Italy TO Manual where I found a farm below the 700m contour line. I continued to the highest point, some 500m away on a direct line at a height of 755m ASL - best endeavours. A few days later when I downloaded my GPS track into Garmin Base Camp and compared the data to the summits page I noticed from a Google search that La Cornate should be 1060m ASL and is miles away from the SOTA Summits page quoted coordinates!

The planning for this trip was only done the day before and was not as thorough as it usually is, However, I would warn any potential activator coming to Italy to carefully check the details from the summits pages and not rely on a download of summit locations as a GPX file from the SOTA Mapping Project. (It’s not your fault Rob!).

The reference for I/TO-315 Poggio Cassacia is also tens of miles away from where it should be. So that is two major positional two errors out of the three summits I checked.

I will be claiming the supposed S2S QSOs I made with OK1MCS/P and DL/G1INK/P as Chaser contacts only, sorry guys but your S2S QSOs are null and void. My conscience will not allow me to cheat!

I’ll leave my log in the database for a few days and then delete it.

I’m pleased to report my activation today of TO-304 was very successful. 70 QSOs and with VK2IO worked on 20m CW & SSB. I hit a purple patch of Es on 10m with 27 QSOs and on 6m with 7 QSOs including EA8EY. My 7 AH LiFePo battery ran at 50 watts RF out for 2.25 hours before it was expired. I won’t be returning to LiPOs again! Fuller report to follow after the holiday is finished.

73 Phil

Pic of what I thought was Le Cornate but which later proved to be IL Monte 755m.

Thanks and done :frowning:


No problem Phil thanks for the chat from an Italian hill,log entry deleted. 73 Don.

Hello Phil,
Out most of the day - just got home from hospital (not me, daughter fractured femur - twice in three months :sob: ) and caught this. Chaser entry deleted. Thanks for letting us know.

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“Le Cornate di Gerfalco” are JN53ld and not JN53kd, in the Natural Reserve of Cornate and Fosini.
On OSM I see a path from Gerfalco, straight n-w to the summit but I cannot see it from the aerial image of bing maps. It seems like a ridge-path where trees and plants are wide.
Then I see a clear path starting from “Campo alle Rose”. I don’t know it… I’m just supposing from the aereal view.
On the Sota Summits page, the summit “Cornate” is placed upon “Monterotondo Marittimo”, and yes it’s far away from the right place…
OH MY GOD :scream:
What a fail.
Gonna check those I/LG in the countryside of my qth…

Anyway I think you should close an eye and validate your activation. You cannot pay for other people mistakes.
"Come to Liguria: we have pasta al pesto, focaccia and better summits. :stuck_out_tongue: "

OK OM, I suggest that a member of the Italian Association looks closely at I/TO-315 - using Open STreet Map the summit location is showing to be on a stream bed and not even on a hill. The coordinates show 315 to be the nearest summit to Manciano where I am staying, but the summit is actually located in the mountains north west of Florence - probably 100 Kms or more from the quoted lat-long. I haven’t checked other summits on the TO list.

A lot of work needs doing to study prominence in Italy and arrive at a proper fuller list, but it is all down to volunteers in country of origin who need to have an appreciation of the 150m prominence rules I guess. If other associations have to comply with this, and they have to in due course, then Italy needs to also,

I travel back to England from Pisa on Saturday, at least I did the one summit yesterday and qualified it for SOTA Complete. I really enjoyed it yesterday on Monte Calvi and never saw a single person on the walk up and down and while I was there. Suits me!

Maybe I visit Liguria next time - after you have checked the list is accurate hihi!

Thanks for comments from the G Chasers - no way I can leave my log in place as it would not be correct and proper as I was miles away from the real summit.

73 Phil I/G4OBK/P

Well said Phil.

Good to get you yesterday on 10 metres.


Victor GI4ONL

Phil, sorry things were less than perfect for you. I think you should get not a gold star but a platinum star for deleting the activation!

The MT is very aware that there are considerable problems with the summits data for Italy. We are in a difficult position because we need to get it fixed but have limited resource. We can’t add more summits till we fix the state we’re in. This is not made easier by many unofficial summits appearing on local webpages which only add to the confusion.

The overall activity in Italy has been very low considering what wonderful countryside/mountains are available, the number of local hams and the ease to which all Europeans can get to Italy. As such, and with the limited resource we have available we’ve take the view we could either shutdown Italy or accept it’s far from perfect. Shutting it down removes the not only the bad but also the valid summits and seems harsh. Accepting it’s broken enabled activations to continue but it does push the onus of checking the summit data is correct onto the activator. Normally this is not an issue as all the activators I’ve met enjoy planning their activations down to the minutest of detail and summit errors get picked up. Normally Phil, I’d have expected an email from you querying this summit during your planning phase when you realised the position indicated and the maps were not in agreement but as you say it was not done to your usual depth due to the rush.

So what does this mean for anyone considering activating in Italy. Well you will have to check the summit position indicated is valid by looking at maps, satellite images etc. Sorry but until we clear some of the other work this is the best we can offer.

Now the summits team do have a full P150 analysis for Italy but have no time to act on that data as we have many other jobs on the list. But if there are some people who want to volunteer to help the summits team get Italy sorted then please contact the MT.

Just for interest, there are about 550 summits listed in Italy at present, our P150 analysis suggests that the number of summits should be nearer 2000.

That sounds like a damn good idea Stefano. :wink:

Dear Andy

Thanks for your explanation of the situation for SOTA Italy, I wish I had been more aware of this before I decided to dip my toe in the water as it were!

73 Phil

On http://www.sotamaps.org there’s the chance to upload or draw a track. I think this the best way to cure some problems. Isn’t it?
Is there any option to modify the position of a summit?

All that does is moves the summit on a map. It doesn’t fix the fact that the database is wrong and the underlying data is wrong.

The log I created of 70 QSOs from I/TO-314 Le Cornate on 01/07/2015 has now been deleted due to my station not being on the summit. Thank’s to those chasers who responded to confirm their deletions. I will check the database in about a weeks time to confirm that all who were worked do the same - I’ll then check chasers logs myself and flag up any void QSOs that are remaining.

73 Phil

Too bad and good on you for being honest and doing the right thing.

I am a bit surprised that it takes a 1 year wait to update things in the system. If it is due to a lack of manpower then maybe the admins should give access to trusted individuals to make changes in the database. Maybe we could all brainstorm to find out what the best approach is. It would make it much easier to update summits for the new joiners such as Japan for example. It takes so much work to update everything that it is normal to have mistakes once in a while.

Sorry guys, but while I am at it, there is a problem in the F/AM region as well. On the map, F/AM-005 (Pic Coolidge) and F/AM-008 (La Fifre) are on each other’s location and need to be switched back around.

Is there a page that summarizes pending amendments to be made in the future to the DB to clean it up in places where there are problems?

Anyway, happy to help if I can.


Well spotted Arnaud on the other error. I do not think there is much wrong with SOTA France data. The French Association seems very well led.

Thank you for your other comments. An alterations pending page may be a good idea or if there are concerns about the accuracy of specific associations data then it should be transparent for all to see. I did apply for a summit to be added to the Italian Toscan Association last week in accordance with the Italian Association Manual giving full details and coordinates of the summit but my application was not allowed. This was for a summit with over 600m of prominence around it. I did receive a response from the Association and Area Manager but no understandable reason or formal refusal was given to my application.

I think the SOTA MT and Database Manager have to be very careful who they allow to edit the database. One good thing about SOTA is that we can all see what everyone else has been working. This facility is the envy of many DXers usng LoTW where the detailed data is restricted to ones own contacts.

I am looking forward to hearing and working some JA summits in the near future, No activations are showing in the database yet… All it needs is for an article to go into the JARL Magazine I expect, or someone to visit a ham fair in Tokyo to give a presentation. This is what G3WGV John Linford (SOTA President and scheme originator) did - at the RSGB HF Convention, I think it was in 2002 or 2003. I saw the lecture and it awakened my interest in the scheme.

73 Phil

Do the maths.

Hi Phil,

Yes, I understand that you have to be very careful who you give access to the DB. I think the combo DB + mapping tool are awsome, I could not ask for much more. Regarding JA, I am itching to activate but I am leaving on a business trip to England then I may have 1 w/e during which I may be able to do something depending on the weather. I still need to email the TIARA group in Japan to let them know, I’ll do that this w/e. After that I am off to France to enjoy 1 month back home in F/AM.

@ MM0FMF, I am sorry but I am still missing something very obvious. I would have thought updating en entry in a DB would have been a matter of executing the right SQL command and then we’re done. It sounds like it is a lot more involved than that. I am actually quite curious, could you let me know what goes into the whole process?

Yeah. If we all could login and change entries with our accounts, everyone would be the inspector of each other. Everything would be fine and accurate. Maybe it’s matter of time…

[quote=“JG1XMV, post:16, topic:11159”]missing something very obvious[/quote]It’s not just the database that needs fixing. The Association’s ARM needs updating, too. Those updates all need checking for accuracy by people who understand and know how to apply the requirements (particularly the prominence ones). There are only so many suitably qualified people with so much spare time for doing that checking (and experience has shown that if checking’s done by people who don’t quite understand the requirements then things get messy real fast).

That is all there is to updating the DB. The mechanics of an update are simple.

But that’s not the issue. The issue is ensuring the data that is used is valid.

And then everything would be as trustworthy as Wikipedia…

Ok, so it sounds like the issue is manpower and people whom you trust to update and not the mechanics of updating the DB. If you do everything with only a few people then I understand why it takes a while. All I can say is: “Good luck” since I can’t do much beyond that.