In reply to M0XSD:
opposite polatity
73,
Colin
Bona 
Roger G4OWG
In reply to G8TMV:
In reply to G3CWI:
based on the result of experiments by Ed Tilton W1HDQ back in the
1940s and 50s.Part of his results were explained by people suggesting that there are
lots of vertical metal objects which tend to absorb vertically
polarised radiation more than they absorb horizontaly polarised
radiation.
I have my doubts: in any steel-framed building there are far more horizontal components than vertical ones, then there is the American penchant for filling the air with wires - phone, power and cable wires everywhere!
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
Of course you could always try circular polarization - best (??) of both worlds and no need to change the antenna mount. Actually it would also solve the problem of polarization shift over long paths.
I did some experiments with circular-to-linear polarization back on the early 1970’s and it was interesting to hear the improvement over a long obstructed path versus linear-to-linear - and even better if the linear station was mobile!
73 - Keith G8BBP
Some of the best radio you can ever experience, is VHF, FM, collinear and some ducting at a couple of thousand feet ASL. Much, much more fun than swinging a beam, a darn sight easier than SSB and you’ll work almost as far.
My contact of about 240 miles with Chris GU3TUX on Alderney about a month ago during the last lift, from G/SP-013 Gun, (a very modest summit) using 2m FM and a collinear, must say something about what this mode is capable of producing.
There’s one thing you can almost guarantee about VHF, FM and a lift …radio hams love to work DX on this mode, so you’ll bag a shed load of contacts!
73 Mike
2E0YYY
An interesting thread. This has never been clear cut in my mind and it probably never will.
I remember working G0NES Don nr Birmingham years ago from Scafell Pike. I was vertical with 5W of FM from a H/H to a half-wave J-Pole. I think he could copy nothing from me but could hear certain chasers. With his greater power I could hear him asking me to lay the aerial over. Uprooting it and getting the direction right during an optimising over from him enabled him to QSL a report back to me and he made it into the log with 10 points. On another occasion, with the same strategy, we failed.
To standardise polarization on VHF (all modes) is no more than a desireable dream. The shapes of chimneys, gable ends to say nothing of mobile installations & repeaters coupled with cost, ease of installation and the requirement for rotation of even of a simple horizontal dipole, will always make vertical by far the most ubiquitous mode even though it may not travel as far.
One problem with vertical beams is that the coax must intersect the working area of the antenna in the plane of polarization, which I find results in VSWR issues and probably pattern distortion too. I know you can take it aft down the boom and beyond the reflector but then you’ve got a mass imbalance. With horizontal it just sneaks neatly up from below - perfect.
If I want to work more serious VHF I generally try to guess what the chasers will have and polarize accordingly. Knowing the target chasers within range had no more than twigs this month, I used a 3-ely vertical on FM but also tried horiz afterwards for CW & SSB (no takers incidentally). However, I had time to spare and the WX was benign. Possibly the biggest aid to this discussion would be a list of chasers with their VHF capabilities alongside.
Though I do enjoy it and I think it takes a lot of skill to do it right, the vertical / horizontal issue on VHF is one of a number of factors which have steered me towards HF activating. Also a really good VHF station might easily exceed an HF one in terms of weight and awkwardness of transport, whilst at the same time being potentially less effective in terms of coverage. Against that is Mike 2E0YYY who seems to do excellently with his VHF setup.
Finally whatever modus operandi an activator chooses, someone somewhere is going to miss out. It is sometimes extremely difficult to add different bands, modes & polarizations within the time and environmental contraints of a (particularly winter) activation(s) whence a large proportion of your energy is directed towards staying alive.
John G4YSS.
In reply to G8BBP:
The circular polarization can be left or right handed. I build a coax switch into a 2 m Eggbeater for LEOS work to switch the polarization. It has some effect when the satellite is over head. In normal satellite work with Yagis it is usually enough to get the only one of the components though.
73, Jaakko OH7BF/F5VGL
In reply to 2E0YYY:
Some of the best radio you can ever experience, is VHF, FM, collinear
and some ducting at a couple of thousand feet ASL. Much, much more fun
than swinging a beam, a darn sight easier than SSB and you’ll work
almost as far.My contact of about 240 miles with Chris GU3TUX on Alderney about a
month ago during the last lift, from G/SP-013 Gun, (a very modest
summit) using 2m FM and a collinear, must say something about what
this mode is capable of producing.There’s one thing you can almost guarantee about VHF, FM and a lift
…radio hams love to work DX on this mode, so you’ll bag a shed load
of contacts!
I have a very strong impression that in recent years tropo ducting has been weaker and rarer than it used to be, but even so you still get the occasional big continental lift, and I wonder if then the FM experience can match the SSB experience? Days when the SSB segment is a mass of continental stations QRMing each other even when a modest beam is restricting you to just a slice of the continent, days when central German stations are end-stopping the S meter and making it hard to work the Balkan stations through them. Days when you ache for a few more elements on the beam and a few more watts so that you can attract the attention of that Israeli station. In those wild and exhilarating conditions the lack of azimuthal discrimination of a colinear and above all the capture effect surely make vertical FM a blunt weapon? Over the years with a modest beam and low to moderate power I have worked 24 countries on two, in itself no more than a moderate achievement, could this be done with FM and a colinear? I have no doubt that you can pick up some good DX on two metre FM with a handful of watts and a colinear, but how well can you get past the wall of near-continental stations?
It is a shame that these great tropo openings are so rare, now, and sporadic-E openings are a more reliable source of DX - and isn’t it a thrill when the band opens with an almost audible clang and becomes jam-packed with annihilatingly strong Mediterranean stations? But there again, on FM the strong stations will be hiding the weak ones. No, I acknowledge the convenience of vertical FM and use it a lot myself when portable, but if the band is open my antenna goes horizontal and I migrate to SSB!
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
I can remember driving on the road past Stac Pollaidh on a family holiday when there was an SpE opening to S. France/Spain the French Band II stations were louder than BBC. In fact they completely obliterated BBC R2 which is quite a healthy signal in those parts. And the RDS station idents were decoded! What I would have done for a beam and radio. Worse my 817 was back at the holiday cottage. An IO87<>JN13 QSO on 2m would be something to savour. The Band II event lasted for about 15mins, enough for the family to request a CD rather than me tuning up and down to see if I could find a N. African station 
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to G8ADD:
As Tom pointed out Brian, for working sheer numbers, 2m FM must win hands down.
Having said this, as we all know, working 2m FM does have one big downside, especially with the FT-857 and that is current draw. At the end of the day, any activation is only as good as the batteries you can carry. Although 2m FM may be the best mode for sheer numbers, it’ll quickly have you reaching for the Valium, (even with a 20Ah SLAB) as you watch the voltage meter reading, ebbing away 
73 Mike
2E0YYY
In reply to G0RQL:
G0NES and myself have on many occasions in the past asked rubber duckers to turn it horizontal, it works but for goodness sake get a multimode 2mtr radio and use ssb horizontal, FM vertical, you can get a second hand multimode for less than £100, stick on the end of a LIPO and of you go, most of the older radios have a high and low power setting, (5/25) and then those that want to work FM can, vertically, and those who want distance i.e. SSB, can work horizontal, all you need is simple dipole!!
M0JDK
In reply to G8XYJ:
However as long as people are on the hills playing on the radio then who minds?
Quite right, that really is the long and the short of it. So long as a reasonable attempt is made to get On Air from a given Summit - what more can be asked?
Up for a cheeky little Broad Heath as the evenings draw out? 
73,
Dave M0MYA.
In reply to M0MYA:
“Up for a cheeky little Broad Heath as the evenings draw out? :)”
Why not mate? Sounds good, we could try and combine one SOTA with one HuMP! What propagates well on HF at around 18:00 in the summer months? Then I can ammend my HF dipole as necessary!
73 for now
Matt
In reply to G8XYJ:
What propagates well on HF at around 18:00 in the summer months
HF rather than LF. D-layer absorption is higher in the summer making LF bands harder work for QRP stations.
Vertical antennas for 20m upwards are easily realised and are simple to setup. They also are more DXy due to the lower radiation angle. With 2 of you to sherpa the stuff, a 5 ele vertical Yagi for 10/12m is entirely feasible. That would give you some “punch” even with just an 817.
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to MM0FMF:
By 18:00 isn’t D-layer absorption reducing considerably?
The Swiss Army penknife of ham bands is 40 metres.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD & MM0FMF
Thanks for the advice guys, I think 40m will be the main choice as I like to work Intra G, but I would like to make a vertical for 20m at some point, mainly for a bit of PSK 31 from the hills.
The roles on HuMPs will be reversed I think - Dave on VHF myself on HF! Should be fun as we both get a change!
73 for now chaps
Matt G8XYJ