That’s not the most unambiguous description I’ve ever read Andy 
. I will consider it slowly with a good whiskey (correct spelling 
).
Hi Andy,
I would NOT recommend putting the loop around the house - if that’s what you are suggesting. I would recommend against even one of its wires going over the top of the house roof anywhere in fact. Although quieter than a vertical, you should avoid putting a major noise source (as all the electrical and electronic equipment in a house is) in the middle of the antenna!
If however, you are talking about just using points on the eaves as support for the antenna that would be over the garden, that could work and a horizontal delta-loop would allow you to do this with the one tree in the middle of the front boundary and either ropes to the eaves or if those two other trees are still in your front garden, an unobtrusive black wire between the three trees - if the circumference of the triangle is large enough, could work. Note thought, as an example if you build a 40m Delta or sky-loop the length of wire that forms the antenna will be around 44-46 metres long and this needs (ideally) to kept away from the tree branches - so perhaps supported by nylon ropes from the trees but not fastened directly to the trees. Black stretchy sailing cord is good for this function as it can keep some stress on the wire but at the same time will flex in the winds.
If you can go to the N.Yorks council’s online planning maps ( Maps | North Yorkshire County Council ) and see if there is one that shows your house and garden with some detail - we can try to make some measurements from those to see what will fit but unless you are really lucky with those trees I suspect a fishing-pole mast or two might be needed for support.
The ICQPodcast is searchable from most podcatcher apps on smart phones, or you can play it directly from the website here:
My feature is after the news round table discussions.
I actually discuss a lot of points around setting up a simple HF station and also cover some operating techniques, so I only really touch on antennas.
73 Ed.
Thanks Ed. I was thinking of having the loop around the house (as a simple way of making it covert), but will follow your advice. I’ve just finished reading your blog. It supports much of what I’d read about before regarding performance compared to a dipole etc. I’m sure I could fit a loop into the garden somehow (will carry out more detailed measurements this weekend).
More reading to do! Thanks all
On the distance between loops question - my honest answer is I don’t know. My guess would be greater than 1/4 wavelength on the lowest band. In your set-up, you might be able to fit one in the back garden and another in the front garden. Depending upon what area of land you have avialble.
Top band (160m) I would say forget, at least initially. Go for an 80m Sky or Delta Loop and see which other higher bands it will cover. Now the circumferance of the antenna is going to be “about” 88 metres - I say about as it’ll depend on what wire you will use and how items around the antenna will affect it and last but not least, how high off the ground it is.
You will need an antenna analyser to set the loop up. you make it too big so that it’s resonant at a too low frequency and then slowly trim back until you get the loop resonant where you want it on it’s primary frequency and then do a scan to see where the other SWR dips are and how lucky you are with other bands.
Once that is done you will have to decide how you will feed the antenna. Some say for it to work on multiple bands you have to feed with ladder-line or use a Balun at the feed-point. I have found that using the cheap and easy to produce Q-section of 75 ohm coax works fine - see my article for how to calculate what length this will need to be.
A plan of you gardens would be very helpful to see what is possible. The more area you can get inside this antenna the better it works - so in fact in an ideal world it would be a circle of wire but that would require a lot of supporting masts and I get the feeling from your comments that to keep your wife happy, you really want a stealth antenna.
73 Ed.
Andy, your post seems to make more sense after a few wee drams of my favourite single malt.
Are you saying put the ATU and UnUn at the far end? Ignoring the added complexity of running a waterproof, spade-proof, dog-proof 12v DC supply 20 or 30m across the garden, you also have a much, much longer (lossy) coax feeder back to the house.
Also, if the horizontal section comes back to the house, that’s not suitable if you operate from the ground floor, whereas my arrangement with the sloping L down to the UnUn is already at ground level.
In my case, the auto ATU is in my KX2 which seems to load up the proverbial wet string.
I can’t see the benefit, only disadvantages. Maybe, it will make perfect sense after another glass.
Andy (G8CPZ)
My shack is going to be on the ground floor. I share G8CPZ’s desire to minimise complex coax (or ladder line) runs.
At this rate, drinking one’s favourite tipple whilst posting to this thread may become a requirement.
BTW: mine’s going down very nicely. Hope I’m gonna be okay for tomorrow morning’s SOTA activation.
Standard operating practice for the MT!
The reason for the remote ATU is
- Horizontal section can be up high (say gutters of house to tree)
- A vertical section is away from the house for lower noise pickup.
- A run of LDF2-50 is effectively lossless at HF. (i.e. 1.8dB @30MHz for 100m)
- Almost instant tuning.
- A few random radials can be attached from the ATU and “lost” in the garden.
- The strongest RF field is distant from the house reducing EMC issues.
- Vertical wire will disappear against the tree.
Downsides
- Need low loss coax
- Need to run DC and coax
- Need an auto ATU (costs money!)
Someone gave me 26m of LDF2-05 a month or so ago. It was an ofcut and too short for his business, he gave it to me to save him having to dispose of it. That was a bargain, but lengths are available because commercial users want fresh cable from a drum not something that’s been sat for who knows how long. You can hand-trench a few inches in to soil/grass to bury cables. Or run it in 50mm PVC pipe. Do it by hand is not hard and the marks will disappear in 3 weeks.
It’s the best all band solution in my book.
I’m not an origin snob. Scottish, Welsh, Irish, English, Japanese malts are fine in my book. Or Bourbons and even some malt/grain blends. You can’t compare Bourbon and Malt, so you just accept they’re different and enjoy them.
Wot? Even Siamese vodka?
The only bad Vodka I’ve had is New Amsterdam. A review site says
“New Amsterdam Vodka comes from the US of A and is five times distilled and triple filtered to achieve the desired purity of flavour and mouth feel.”
Yet it leaves an after taste like you’ve been sucking swarf and cutting fluid of a lathe.
Here’s my recommendation. I have to use a stealthy antenna where I live. I chose to put up an inverted vertical delta loop cut for 40m. Inverted means that the apex is near ground level…maybe 7ft above ground – that’s the feed point. You need two supports for this antenna. In my case, one support is on the second story of my house. The other support is a tree in the backyard.
A delta loop is resonant on both odd and even harmonic multiples. In my case it is cut for 40m…so it’s resonant on 40m, 20m, 15m and 10m. I use a tuner for 17m and 12m.
I use a 4:1 balun at the feedpoint and run coax to the shack. The feedline and balun are only 7 ft above ground so nobody can see it.
I’ve worked the entire world on this antenna…perhaps 13K plus contacts. A loop antenna is very quiet in regards to local QRN as well.
73, Brad
WA6MM
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oh…and drinking vodka, whiskey and/or beer is required when putting up a new antenna! ;-).
73, Brad
WA6MM
My apologies for being off topic again.
What I’ll never understand is, as Laphroaig and Lagavulin are both distilled on the south of the island of Islay, how come Lagavulin tastes like the nectar of the gods whereas Laphroaig tastes like dentist’s mouthwash.
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Firstly approve of Andy’s Tipple…although I must admit the Jura I tried last week was very good.
I have used fairly sucessfully Kevlar antenna wire between trees - and so far nothing has snapped and it is almost invisible. Combine that with transparent plastic insulators and antennas can almost disappear. I use an ZS6BKW and to stop RFI I have the coax wrapped round a torroid away from the RFI near the house. You might need to try a few different variations to minimise the RFI… The biggest problem here was the overhead telephone lines and associated DSL noise. The performance of the antenna does seem to depend on how dry the trees are that support the wire… Good Luck!
where’s that moderator when you need him? 
I’m starting to think of an 80m horizontal loop at the back with possibly an inverted L at the front of the house. One has to take full advantage of any leeway granted by the boss! and that includes a 2nd whiskey. I can probably get the aerial up to about 20’ AGL and thin wire is unlikely to attract much comment (I already have an end fed sloping from about 8’ to about 15’ which is my current setup). Looking forward to the DX already. Now where’s that 2nd whiskey to celebrate? I’d offer you all a dram as a thank you… but you’ll just have to imagine the tipple of your choice 
Drinking Glenfiddich Solera Fifteen!
Run the DC through the coax. You can buy the kit that permits this.
I think I read somewhere that if you asked ten hams what the best antenna was for a given situation you will get eleven answers!
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I try not to get too involved in threads that start “what is the best?..” because there is never a single simple answer. I don’t always stay out of the discussion because sometimes I can offer something.
- The type of antenna for multi band effectiveness has been dealt with.
- The approval of the antenna is a process that can be aided with several diagrams. The ideal antenna (versatower with dynamic beam on top, mutliple lower band dipoles hanging down) could be one diagram. The single vertical support pole mid back yard at the feed point of an undefined wire antenna, exact type unimportant, and finally a mast on the roof of the house with wires draping down from it like spiderweb. More versions to taste. Show diagrams to other party, ask them to choose their preference. Outcome may be obvious, as long as it isn’t “none of them”. No doubt “you must be joking” would be one possible response.
I know this won’t help.
73 Andrew VK1DA/VK2UH. Aka Andy at random (unresonant) times.
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Agreed, poor choice of question. “What are your views on…“ would have been better - but we got there despite my wording 
I think I’ve got a plan A now (80m skyloop) with an even more covert plan B if required. You all managed to give me a wealth of information in a short time to point me in the right directions for further research. Speaking to my neighbours will also give me the opportunity to address a long running irritation- the one who persists in flying the Union flag upside down 
FMF are you satisfied now? 3 Andys and an Andrew
Thanks
Almost critical! 
I’ll get you to quorum then. “Any antenna is better than no antenna”.
(militant) Andrew
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