General Rules review and update

Barry,

It is one rule for all. P100 is the Programme-wide minimum.

Individual associations then propose their own prominence figure as appropriate to their own association. It has to be that way. P100 may turn out to be an enhancing opportunity for, say, ON or indeed LX. It may not do anything worthwhile for Scotland, and would perhaps not be a sensible starting point to build, say, a Russian association - where something significantly above P150 might be the only way to build a meaningful association.

These are just illustrative conjectures. It is important that the local teams suggest the association parameters, within a fair and consistent structure.

Tom M1EYP

In reply to M1EYP:

P100 would not be sensible for some Associations.

If you are used to the Lake District the Alps comes as an almighty shock. I’m told that if you are used to the Alps the Himalaya comes as an almighty shock.
One day I expect a climber will stare aghast at Mons Olympus!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to 2E0PXW:

Barry

It is trying to enforce one rule for all that is currently causing such furore in DM/DL.

The intention of the variable prominence rule is to allow a degree of compensation for the discrimination introduced by variations of geography between the different Associations.

The reason for specifying a minimum prominence is to prevent “dumbing down” of the intention of the Programme, which is to encourage Amateur Radio activity from summits with which there is associated a distinct climb.

This is not to say there is no place for operation from summits with a lesser prominence, just that it is not SOTA.

73 de Paul G4MD

In reply to 2E0PXW:

Let’s hope the MT will be equally delighted
to adopt P100 across the UK also.

With about 400 unactived summits out of 1200 or so and the most activated summit having only been on the air 20 times there is little reason to add more to GM. If you mean ENGLAND say so. Don’t lump us GM’s in with your G issues. It’s bad enough when politicians down South do it without fellow hams doing it too. Thank you.

Rant over.

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:

I could say something but I will bite my tounge.

73
Steve

In reply to 2E0KPO:

Don’t bite your tongue Steve, otherwise you’ll have to learn morse in order to make some SOTA contacts!

Actually Andy ought to watch it otherwise he and his fellow GM’s will have a load of us sassenac G operators swarming over the border to mop up their previously unactivated summits and flood the rest with multiple activations so making them less desirable for chasers looking for uniques!

73, Gerald

In reply to 2E0KPO:

I could say something but I will bite my tounge.

Really. This whole demand for P100 is an English issue due to the relatively few hills and their geographic distribution. A move to P100 would provide summits in areas where there are none with P150. From what I remember of the postings, it adds mainly 1pt hills and as such is not going to make a massive change to the English association. There might be 1 or 2 big summits that would be valid, but the effect would be statistically insignificant.

Unlike G, and to my knowledge, every other association, we’ve had some democracy in action up here. The question was put to active GM association “members” (and I use that word with caution) and to a man they said leave it as P150.

Should G move to P100? I don’t know. It’s up to the G activators/chasers to make a case for the change. I’ve only ever done 2 English summits, Rawhead which didn’t seem to involving any climbing at all and some wee pimple called Cross Fell which earned me 11pts for 2hours effort. So I hardly feel qualified to comment but on face value P100 for England doesn’t look to be a terrible idea.

I’m sorry to rain all over your parade but the facts from the GM actiavtors are most demonstably against change. I’ve read there’s no democracy in SOTA, well there is in GM and the vote was for LEAVE OUR HILLS ALONE.

You seem to be conversent with website design so why don’t you put together a poll online for the G activators and chasers to express their opinions? Nothing speaks louder that hard statistics.

Andy
MM0FMF

In reply to MM0FMF:

Unlike G…we’ve had some democracy in action…

You do not have a monopoly on democracy North of the border Andy. When the subject of additional G summits was reviewed by our AM, James M0ZZO, in summarising the pros and cons, he states he received more support for the status quo than for the introduction of more summits.

Which highlights the problem with democracy - you can’t always get what you want (although if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need as Mr Jagger once said)

73 de Paul G4MD

In reply to G4MD:

You do not have a monopoly on democracy North of the border Andy. When
the subject of additional G summits was reviewed by our AM, James
M0ZZO, in summarising the pros and cons, he states he received more
support for the status quo than for the introduction of more summits.

I have no recollection that he solicited the opinions of G activators in any systematic way, or even announced that he was conducting a review. Did I miss something?

Taking note of those opinions that just happen to present themselves at the time is hardly a democratic process.

In reply to G4MD:

… in summarising the pros and cons, he states he received more
support for the status quo than for the introduction of more summits.

Hi Paul,

Using the democratic method you can, of course, only ask the existing participants. From experience and despite the effect that the introduction of 5MHz has had on the program, I am certain that the geographic spread and density of the existing activators and chasers reflects that of the summits, that is the majority still live in the north west of England. It is natural from this geographic position to see the addition of single point summits in the southern part of the country under P100 rules as not being worthwhile, possibly devaluing to the program and at worst hassle.

I am of the opinion that we need to have a broader understanding for the sake of the future of SOTA, particularly with regards to potential participants. We need to consider the situation from the point of view of someone in the southern part of the country. This is where the bulk of the population of the country is located and we need to take that fact on board.

73, Gerald

In reply to G4OIG, G1MAJ

Morning Gerald, Martyn

Ooh dear obviously my tongue was not firmly enough in my cheek when I wrote my last post…

My point is that “democracy” does not necessarily give the “right answer” - something like extra summits for G is far too important to let it be decided by those few who can be bothered to vote or make their opinion known.

Development of Gerald’s arguments above is a good start to making the case for our extra summits.

73 de Paul G4MD

In reply:
Good morning has all. I have no desire to restart a debate what is said more high. Simply rappeller that the section France was created to you some passionate Om, of which Alain f6eno.
His job on the different summits was considerable. With the help of LES we classified of numerous summits and errors were unavoidable
I find displaced and unhealthy comments made here! during a debate with Alain and others OMs French we decided to submit to the new rules in the purest mind OM and associative.
We shall still work so that errors disappear, as said Alain we have a huge ground to be covered! the observations of the OMs on the ground will be the welcome
But if you find abérations, instead of running from a summit to other one, what is very sports invite it me! do not hurry up! that’s right true ethics! and the honneteté
send a mail us and we shall update database!
Thank’s for read me and escuse my bad english.
I hope that MT will find satisfactory resolutions for all our friends, so that each can go on has have his place while respecting the mind of SOTA
Best regards
f5nep Lionel

In reply to F5NEP:

Hi Lionel

be sure that many people here did and do every day same work with summits and we know what the difficulties are, and that it is not by any means “an one evening job” .

Errors are exist and always will exist. Our job as Ams (with the help of our RMs and activators) is to track them and keep the list in a good shape. That is fully understandable for everyone involving with ARMs so dont need to apologize at all.

SOTA is defined by its rules and we want to participate to that SOTA, not some “other” SOTA or do a differnet one by our own will. Our participants (in every country) want the same thing and they are the first in the row who will “accuse” us if we dont have a list according to SOTA rules.

I dont think that anyone will believe that he can use “errors” in your manual, or mine or in any other ARM to make a “thesis” for how is SOTA or could be. There so many other good and rigth things to choose from them and use.

congrats for good work there, i trying fix things here to manage be one of your activators this summer. Please keep some summits near TMB (with errors or not :)).

Best Regards
73, Panos, SV1COX

In reply to SV1COX:
hi Panos, welcome to France, and be sure that to take in us to the maximum to offer you summits in norms!!We work on it all, and every day I accept mails of OMs which on the ground control the validity of summits and offer us new.
thank you for your comments and your encouragement.
it was a pleasure to copy you in the futur, with F/SV1COX/P.
Best regards from SOTA France
73’s QRO
f5nep Lionel

In reply to G4OIG:

I am of the opinion that we need to have a broader understanding for
the sake of the future of SOTA, particularly with regards to potential
participants. We need to consider the situation from the point of view
of someone in the southern part of the country. This is where the bulk
of the population of the country is located and we need to take that
fact on board.

As has been mentioned, the south of England is where the bulk of the population resides, and, by extension, the home to a major proportion of licensed radio amateurs. Despite this, SOTA has not made significant inroads into the consciousness of many southern amateurs.

Naturally, topography has a lot to do with this, as the hills we have down here do not loom so large, either actually or figuratively, in our day-to-day existence. They have no significant influence on our climate, and are low enough to experience the same weather almost without exception. Our recreational use does not generally differentiate between a country walk and a hill walk, and Mr Average would probably be hard-pressed to name more than a handful of hills in his general vicinity.

It has frequently been suggested that reducing the prominence parameter of the English Association from 150m to 100m will somehow be a “magic bullet” that will allow a sudden upsurge of enthusiasm and activity for SOTA. I beg to differ.

A glance at the Summits page will reveal that there are fifteen SOTA summits in the SE Region – my home patch. Since SOTA’s inception they have had a total of 329 activations, of which 78 are mine. With around 23% of SE activations, I guess I can reasonably claim to be the Region’s most prolific activator, and my perspective may be of interest.

Of the fifteen SE summits, two (SE-002 Leith Hill and SE-005 Botley Hill) quite literally look down on the outspread suburbs of London. If there was really a latent desire for SOTA, merely thwarted by a lack of summits, one would expect that there would have been far more activations than have taken place. Both are easy to reach by road, and are served by public transport, Leith Hill to the bottom and Botley Hill to the top! In fact, my fifteen visits to Leith Hill represent almost 50% of the total number of listed activations. Of the rest, there are some well-known “northern” SOTA callsigns “passing through” to gain another unique, and a few one-off visitors – hardly the statistics to reflect local unfulfilled dreams!

Many of the SOTA activators that pass through the SE also comment how hard it is to qualify any summit with simple VHF/UHF equipment, despite the large numbers of potential contacts within range. The truth is that, for whatever reason, the south-east does not use the VHF/UHF bands in the same way as happens further north. It seems that lots of people are monitoring the various repeaters and calling channels, but only respond to voices they recognise. Whether this is a long-term result of earlier repeater abuse and piracy, I don’t know, but it makes SOTA-style operations with a hand-held often doomed to failure.

In this environment, what would be the effect of adding a range of new summits to P100 level? Any new summit could not be any easier to access than the existing ones, so it is difficult to envisage a sudden increase in SOTA activity down here. Since my initiation into SOTA, I have tried, not always successfully, to manage at least one activation of each SE summit in each calendar year. How would I react to a virtual doubling of the number of summits? Well, if they were to be introduced, I would obviously wish to add each to my “uniques” score, but there again, according to the rules, I only need one QSO from each! After that I would not expect to re-visit them for a multi-band, multi-mode, extended visit. Why should I? There would be another batch of new summits just over the border in SC that I need for uniques!

Once the dust has settled from the inevitable initial flurry, I believe that the overall level of SOTA activity in England will remain around previous levels. After all, each SOTA activator has only a certain amount of time, money and enthusiasm to devote to the hobby, and that will be diluted amongst a wider range of, in my view, unnecessary and unchallenging new summits.

There has been a lot of discussion on the subject of reducing the prominence to 100m, much of it very sensible and well-argued. However, I do sense an undercurrent of selfishness from a few who believe they stand to gain. By all means argue your case, but please don’t hide behind the myth that you are somehow helping us poor, benighted souls in the south out of the goodness of your hearts!

These are my personal views, and do not claim to represent the views of the MT as a whole.

73 de Les, G3VQO

In reply to G3VQO:
Anyone who has struggled to qualify an activation from DC will know that the puzzling lack of VHF activity referred to by Les doesn’t just apply to the SE! On the other hand, SOTA activity on the LF bands is booming and I believe that the continuing spread of SOTA will continue this trend. This can give QRP ranges of several thousand kilometres.

If P100 was to be adopted in England there would be some who gain from having more local summits, although in the lowland areas such a gain would probably only amount to a handful of points per year and would hardly boost them up the tables! FWIW my opinion is that there are only two serious arguments to be considered for the adoption of P100:

  1. Fuel economy, the reduction of mileage to be driven by someone who is reasonably active. At a time when predictions are being made that fuel will exceed £1.50 per litre by the end of the year and continue rising, and when the CO2 produced by burning fossil fuels is believed to be contributing to Global Warming, this is a significant argument.

  2. The option in the more hilly areas of replacing some of the drive and hike activations with more substantial mountain walks incorporating two or more summits; I have for instance identified walks with up to five summits with just a few hours of studying the LD maps. As a lover of the hills I consider this a desireable option!

Against this is the consideration that P100 is a noticeably less significant prominence than P150, and will reduce the air of “specialness” of the SOTA summits. Ask a climber, 100m is only two rope lengths, nothing at all, really!

On balance I prefer P100, but it is a finely balanced thing for me, YMMD!

As Les says, these are my personal views!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G3VQO:

“Once the dust has settled from the inevitable initial flurry, I believe that the overall level of SOTA activity in England will remain around previous levels.”

With the price of diesel now £1.15 a litre, I dont think my activity will be around my previous levels. Why should I spend a wad of money to do a couple of 1 pointers in the Lake District which Ive done 4 or 5 times already. Now if there was a dangling carrot in the form of a bunch of new uniques to be had, then I`d probably not think twice about the fuel & rush out to bag them.
Just my personal opinion - but one that I suspect a few fellow activators would share.
Steve G1INK.

Continuing the theme of personal (not MT) views:

I am torn. I like the idea of having Shutlingsloe, The Roaches, Eccles Pike, Chinley Churn, Werneth Low and Mow Cop to add to my locally activatable (word just invented) summits. I like the idea of there being a whole bunch more to do in the SP region.

I don’t like the idea of my completed distant regions becoming incomplete - CE, TW, WB etc! Or that my future plans to complete DC, SC, SE will become much more challenging.

There looks to be some really good summits and walks in the HuMPs, but also quite a few more “drive-almost-to” summits. I’m not saying that these summits cannot have a place in SOTA, but more significantly, the level of achievement of our existing thresholds will obviously be different.

As I say, entirely personal views from an entirely personal perspective. When/if the MT begins to consider and discuss the issue, then I will look at it entirely objectively in terms of the good of the SOTA Programme.

On a couple of points above: I like Brian’s argument about the increased range of multi-summit rounds that become available. It is true that many of us do a SOTA, descend back to the car, drive, then go and do another SOTA. This may well stimulate some more quality mountain walking by activators.

I do not subscribe to the environmental point whatsoever. More summits means more activations and more driving, quite simply. It might increase activity in the Programme, for some, but it will not be kind on the environment. I doubt it is a case that people drive shorter distances to more nearby summits. There will be more journeys undertaken to get the new uniques.

Levels of activity in G are still good, so that isn’t a problem. But then you could say that such levels of enthusiasm deserve a greater range of summits, and if P100 is an option for places with “relatively” few summits, then G is just the place to allow it.

Personal view, with MT hat firmly off, is marginally in favour, with a few reservations. This fence is quite comfortable. Think I’ll sit on it for a little while longer… :wink:

Tom M1EYP

In reply to G3VQO:

Hi Les,

I wonder whether you have ever really thought about why SOTA has not caught on the the south of England. Could it be that the restricted number of summits actually inhibits potential activators from “dipping their toe in the water”. I spent the best part of my first year developing my SOTA skills. I started with Walbury Hill SE-001 and soon polished off the 5 CE summits. A week away in the SB’s gave me an inkling of what some very different summits would be like to activate. I was very fortunate to have this experience, yet I then spent the rest of the year “training” on the WB’s before expanding my interests.

You refer to the effect of topography upon the conscious mind of the “southerner”, for want of a better description. While I take your point that many cannot name local hills, quite a percentage will be amateur radio operators first and hill walkers second. While operating on SOTA summits, many that I have spoken to (and this includes those in the south) have expressed interest in SOTA as an extension to their existing portable activities. However, the change from sitting in a car seat to sitting for an hour on a hill top, however benign the weather, is considerable. Why should they bother with doing this if there are only a few summits to try out?

You refer to the suggestion that reducing the prominence parameter of the English Association from 150m to 100m will somehow be a “magic bullet” that will allow a sudden upsurge of enthusiasm and activity for SOTA. I don’t know where you got this idea from, as my arguement for the change is, and has always been, based on the longer term.

With regards to the illustration given in respect of the summits local to London, I do not agree with your viewpoint. The take up of SOTA within an area must be related to the availability of summits locally. As I said I was extremely fortunate to get a kick start. Had I not been encouraged by the activations in the SB’s, then my SOTA “career” could have been extremely short lived.

As far as qualifying the SE summits on VHF is concerned, the only time that I had anything like a problem was on Butser Hill when the 4 contacts took 20 minutes to get with an FT-290R and 1/4 wave whip without an alert or post. Certainly using SSB, the south east looks quite lively from my home QTH in Northampton.

The description of what a change to P100 would mean in relation to your activations was interesting. I would hope that additional summits would provide a greater variety and therefore increase your level of activity, but your comment about “unchallenging new summits” is rather revealing. I would have expected that sort of statement to come from regular activators of the major summits.

With regards to selfishness, some may believe they stand to gain, but I can assure you that it is not my standpoint. I would like to see a greater geographical spread in the interest in SOTA for the long term benefit of the program. I argue for those considering SOTA, not those already established and I must say that I find your comment regard the poor of the south rather patronising.

73, Gerald

That comment was clearly tongue-in-cheek (or so I read it), or at least laced with a little humour, Gerald.

Les’s comment talked about “standing to gain”. This is finely balanced when you looks at it.

Mileage/journeys/expense/environment:

There will be shorter journeys. There will be more journeys. Will the overall mileage/expense/carbon footprint go up or down? For me, up. I would definitely activate all my new local and fairly local new uniques. I would not abandon my ambitions to complete England and North Wales. In fact, in doing so, I would want to collect all the new HuMPs as well. So definitely an increase in my expense and environmental impact, as well as my participation.

Summits:

More summits, more activations - more interest?

Suddenly, from nearly completing regions, to less than halfway there - less interest?

Easier to get MG/SS. Good thing or bad thing?

Finely balanced!

Good for the programme? I don’t know, I remain undecided. Opinion appears to be equally split on this reflector, and indeed to some extent within the MT. What is important, is that all those with a view one way or the other, make that view known to James M0ZZO (G-AM) via direct email. I will - if/when I decide!

Tom M1EYP