CW Groan

In reply to GW0DSP:

Why do the alligators insist on giving their callsigns many times even while the activator is trying to reply to a chaser?

I hear that one CW op got a stuffed toy alligator sent through the post anonymously, so maybe they all want one.

Just a thought.
Steve GW7AAV

I’ve been a near 100% CW operator for over 40 years and would like to offer my opinion. Through the '60s, '70s, '80s and even into the '90s, CW operating skills generally improved or at least didn’t deteriorate. The Morse end of the bands was where you went to avoid the often poor operating found in the 'phone segments. Sadly I have witnessed a profound deterioration in CW operating skills over the past few years. I think, at risk of being a little contentious, there are several factors at work here:

  1. The ME! society. People want it and they want it now. They are no longer willing to wait for a while and get it later. We see this in all walks of life.

  2. The availability of technology. Nowadays you can, in theory, “copy” CW without knowing a single dit of Morse code. CW readers, Skimmer and other toys (for that is what they are) provide an apparent solution to those that cannot or will not learn the code.

  3. Fewer people on HF have CW skills. Not so long ago you couldn’t operate on HF unless you had passed at least a 12WPM Morse test. There are some good CW operators who never passed a Morse test but they are the exception. Similarly there are plenty who did pass their Morse test, then never used Morse ever again. They don’t generally turn up in the CW pileups though.

  4. General relaxation, especially in recent years, of the standards and commitment required to become a radio amateur.

  5. Fewer people go through the “apprenticeship” of listening for a few years before getting a license. Time was when the newbie Radio Amateur already knew all about operating etiquette. These days people jump straight in with their nice new call signs.

  6. PacketCluster. Marvellous though PacketCluster is, it concentrates the pileup. The same criticism can be equally applied to SOTAWatch. Everyone arrives on frequency at the same time, making the pileup more ferocious. Just as heavy traffic brings out the worst in people’s driving, so deep pileups seem to encourage poor operating.

What are the solutions? Theoretically there are many, practically I fear there are few.

SPLIT OPERATION. DXpeditions, faced with the same sort of problems (lots of callers, unruly pileups) use split operation and this helps enormously. But split operation depends on the fact that there are many callers and very few DXpeditions. If there are several SOTA stations then by the time even a modest split has been applied, say 500Hz for each activator, large chunks of spectrum are being used, which for the actual level of activity is probably unacceptable, especially to those that are not chasing SOTA stations. That said, if I get a decent pileup going then I will always consider going split, even if only for a few minutes.

EDUCATION. It would be nice to think we could educate people on how to operate. My long experience has been that the sort of people who wilfully operate badly, members of the Me! society and the short-cut merchants who use technology instead of their ears simply aren’t listening.

SANCTIONS. They never work. In Amateur Radio or in other walks of life.

NAME AND SHAME. Divisive, counter-productive, creates bad feeling. One man’s bad operating is another man’s sporty pileup. Who judges what constitutes bad operating?

COMMUNITY/PEER PRESSURE. Perhaps this might stand a chance. SOTA is a tight knit community, in part because of the SOTAWatch facility. There can be few who are active in the programme, whether chaser or activator, who are not also users of this facility.

You won’t hear G3WGV on the air very much these days. One of the reasons is the way that the CW end of the bands, for so long the home of civilised and skilled operating, is no longer the place it used to be.

73, John
G3WGV, N3GV

In reply to G3WGV:

Hello John

Good to have your input on a thread like this and I would not disagree with any of the points you raise.
Like you, I have been a 100% CW op for nearly 40 years, both as an Amateur and professionally at sea. However, you might have overlooked another main reason for the collapse in standards, to which you have contributed in a totally innocent fashion. Back in the 60s/70s, without DX Clusters and computer aided listings, we really only had DXCC, WAS, WAB and a few other country awards. Nowadays there are hundreds and this engenders the competitive spirit. No matter that SOTA insists it is not inherantly competitive, you only have to read the threads on here to realise that it is very competitive. Your own UKCW list fosters competition and wherever this exists, good manners will tend to be relegated.
The only suggestion so far which would change the situation on SOTA is the naming and shaming route. There was the case on here a couple of weeks back, where an activator named a chaser and threatened not to return his calls. His behaviour improved dramatically. The reduction in the standards of general behaviour has been exacerbated by doing nothing about it.

73’s
David/G4CMQ

In reply to GW0DSP:

Basically SOTA is becoming the victim of its own success. As I write this Dan DH8DX/p has been active on 7.033 CW for more than 30 minutes using 599 BK contest-style operating and the pile-up is still considerable. Dan only sends his call and SOTA reference every dozen QSO’s or so, but other activators insist on sending their call and reference every single contact, which is their decision of course, but it then doubles the waiting time.

Chasers do not want to spend this amount of time calling, so standards deteriorate in the desperate attempt to get in and out as quickly as possible.

Klaus and Norby are leading the way in reducing the congestion around 7032 KHz by either using a Spotlite to announce a clear frequency such as 7014 or moving up to 10118 or 14058 KHz which thins out the callers and is a welcome relief for chasers.

73
Roy G4SSH

In reply to G4CMQ:
Hi David,

Thanks for you comments. I understand and empathise with your comments regarding the increasingly competitive nature of amateur radio. Some would say that is merely a reflection of society at large - people are instinctively competitive, indeed it is an evolutionary necessity. Where I diverge with your thinking is that this necessarily leads to poor operating standards.

Leaving aside the perennial arguments about band occupancy, contests generally demonstrate pretty good operating standards. Most of the competitors have honed their skills and have learned how to operate quickly, efficiently and with optimal score rate. Although standards of contest operating are also deteriorating, I don’t think the reason is the mere fact it is a contest. There must be other reasons. The same logic I feel sure must extend to other so-called competitive activities, such as SOTA.

Personally, I enjoy a good pileup! I consider myself to be a good, competitive operator and I get satisfaction out of making the best rate out of a big pileup and working as many people as the inevitability of queueing theory will permit. Never ever would I let my operating standards slip, no matter how ferocious the pileup or fierce the competition.

I think the underlying problem was clearly identified by my good friend G4OBK a few “overs” back. People are trying to run before they can walk. Sometimes people are trying to avoid running or even walking altogether by using CW readers and the like. And as a result, they have no concept of “pileup dynamics”, so they call out of turn, incessantly, over the top of the DX station and all the other bad things. In my experience it is very hard to convince these people that they are doing anything wrong, ergo they are disinclined to modify their behaviour or improve their skills.

'tis a problem to be sure and I don’t know what the answer is. I suppose if it was an easy fix then it would have been fixed already before the slide into anarchy had advanced to quite such an extent. I remain unconvinced in the general sense that name and shame works. This is primarily because whilst there is undeniably bad operating out there that ALL would recognise as such, there is also enthusiastic, fast, effective operating that others might consider unacceptable.

I would be in favour of developing a set of operating guidelines. Here’s my starter for ten:

For Chasers

  1. LISTEN.
  2. Send your call sign once, perhaps twice at most before listening again.
  3. Never call out of turn. If the DX asks for G3W and your call sign does not contain all those characters, do not call.
  4. Send at a speed that you are comfortable with and can achieve without errors. Just because the DX is doing 40WPM doesn’t mean you have to!
  5. Keep your exchange as short as practical.
  6. Hang on in there. You’ll work him eventually. You don’t have to be the first in the log - you get the same number of points regardless.

And for Activators:

  1. Send your call sign at the end of each QSO. Establish a rhythm, so people know when to call.
  2. If you get a partial call, make sure that you persevere until you have the full call. Never give in to the bullies who keep calling regardless of the fact they are not your partial. What us contesters call “partial persistence”.
  3. Do consider going split if the pileup becomes too much to handle. It’ll help your rate, so more chasers will get a QSO.
  4. Within the constraints of safety on the hills, etc. do try to work the pileup down rather than abandoning a pileup with many calling.
  5. Never lecture the pileup. It wastes time, spoils the rhythm and they aren’t listening anyway.

There is another principle that I believe in quite strongly and that is that the DX operator is in control of the pileup and it is his responsibility to keep his pileup under control.

Enough, already!

73, John.
G3WGV, N3GV

In reply to G0AZS:
…but as Roy G4SSH pointed out some time ago, at busy times there may be activators on 7.031, 7.032 and 7.033. Split operation would probably cause chaos in that case].

With lots of chasers and activators QRV at the same time is their any binding necessity to stay within 7030 - 7033?
We have SOTAWATCH, we have the cluster - why is it not possible to move down (as Klaus DF2GN now frequently does) to, say, 7015 and listen on 7016?

As for operating standards, while I have some sympathy with the views expressed, in many ways the operating has become much better - have just been listening to the large pileup for Dan DH8DX/p on 7.033 and he did the business in his usual efficient fashion.
Rather than point out the occasional bad bit of operating, wouldn’t it be better to face facts and live with the fact that SOTA is now much more popular and the pileups are getting bigger - with the attendant likelihood that someone will be perceived as operating badly while chasing.

I frequently wince at some operating practices (including my own when I slightly mis-time a call) but have come to realise that we all have our different styles and this is what makes CW so unique; but to the alligators who insist on sending their call twice PLEASE do at least listen when the activator comes back to you and not call again!

73 de Cris
GM4FAM

In reply to GM4FAM:
Hi Cris

Oh I agree totally with you about spreading out elsewhere Cris. But doing that probably means you need some form of self spotting facility and then it works well.

Otherwise you know that when you call between 7.030 and 7.033… you get a chaser replying and a subsequent qualification… even if you are QRPp with a poor antenna… hence its popularity.

…and is it my imagination or have the pile ups been slightly better behaved today :slight_smile:

73 Marc G0AZS

In reply to GM4FAM:

Good points, Cris. I’m listening to the nice pileup that DJ3AX/P is running on 7033 and to be honest the operating standard of the pileup is pretty good.

Scary to hear the size of the pileups though - what have I done by creating SOTA?! :slight_smile:

73, John/WGV

In reply to G0AZS:

Hi all

Some very good points have been made by ops I have a great respect for, thanks for your comments.

The pile-ups are getting bigger which is a compliment to the Sota awards scheme and the answers will be hard to find. Having said that, I type this while waiting to work Lutz when the pile-up thins out.

To you Marc, I think that the pile up behaviour has improved substantialy since this thread started, so maybe it is being read and the advice offered being heeded, fingers crossed.

I think to those who are passionate about cw will always be so, no matter what.

73
Mike GW0DSP

P.S. Just got him, patience is a virtue.

In reply to G0AZS:
… but doing that probably means you need some form of self spotting facility and then it works well].

No need even for that Marc - if an activator comes up on, say, 7031 and the pileup starts to get unmanageable he can look elsewhere for 2 clear kHz; he can then announce his QSY TXmit freq and voila!, he has self-spotted himself right then and there (one of the many chasers on SOTAWATCH will do the rest for freq announcing).
73 Cris
GM4FAM

Interesting. DJ3AX/P had completely worked out his pileup within 26 minutes of being spotted for the first time. I’d guess at perhaps 40 to 50 QSOs in that time, perhaps Lutz can advise. So hardly a big pileup but fairly intensive, due, I suspect to a combination of SOTAWatch and “must get it NOW-itis”. Pileup seemed good natured and that is largely down to good pileup management by Lutz. When he called out a partial everyone else stood by. Few called out of turn (it’s going to happen occasionally through no fault - simple pileup dynamics at work).

Actually I was quite impressed and wonder whether the problem is as bad as has been made out. Or perhaps, as has been suggested, this thread has had some impact. That would be a good result.

73, John/WGV

In reply to G3WGV:
Hi John
You have created no less a monster than Geoff Watts did by creating SOTA - I guess he would never have envisaged how popular the programme would become, and I am sure he would be delighted that his brainchild is in such capable administrative hands and enjoys such popularity.
Many of us should be similarly thankful that SOTA is in the same healthy state - and with the same robust debates as those in the IOTA community about what should and shouldn’t qualify for inclusion!
73 de Cris
GM4FAM

In reply to GM4FAM:

I think we are still in the very early days of SOTA (which IMHO is no monster!) At present it is possible to work all the HF activations in a day if you have a good station, good technique and reasonable conditions, but as SOTA spreads to more countries and more time zones it will be more and more difficult to get the lot and the chasers will have to become more discriminating as to who they call - as indeed, the Uniques specialists already are - and this just might relieve some of the pressure. This phase of the sunspot cycle will also come to an end eventually (the Maunder maunderers might argue with this!) and operating patterns will change. A few years ago the present dominance of CW could not have been imagined, I find it quite stimulating to try and imagine a vastly extended SOTA at sunspot maximum - when VK comes on line chasing could become a 24 hours per day hobby!

By the way, isn’t 7030 supposed to be the QRP CALLING frequency? Shouldn’t people QSY from a calling frequency automatically? Also, some of our activators on 7030 are not really QRP, are they? I wonder what the QRP enthusiasts think about the SOTA invasion, do they welcome more activity or resent being crowded out at times?

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

By the way, isn’t 7030 supposed to be the QRP CALLING frequency?

No, in the bandplan it is listed as a “centre of activity” for QRP stations.

73 de Les, G3VQO

In reply to G8ADD:

Going back a couple of years, before SOTA Watch, activators started using the QRP “centres of activity” frequencies in order to be easily found by chasers.

This resulted in QRP enthusiasts strongly objecting to the sudden pile-ups that occurred from time to time. They pointed out that although the activator was QRP, the chasers certainly were not and there was a lot of deliberate jamming of SOTA activators on 7030 KHz

In order to resolve the problem SOTA activators moved up or down a couple of KHz, so we now have 7032, 14058 etc., which works well, apart from 40m where activators are squeezed between the QRP 7030 spot and data transmissions which regularly come down to 7034 KHz.

73
Roy G4SSH

In reply to G3VQO:

Possibly my copy is outdated, but FWIW it says “7.030 - QRP (low power) calling freq.” I’m still working from the 2004 RSGB Deluxe Diary & Log Book - I never bought another one, the log book was filled by August, but it seemed a handy reference, perhaps its time to retire it!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to all:

Ouch… long and difficult reading thread for my poor english…

Well, I have a question to my conclusion:
I seems that:

  • Chasers now must send their call only one time (maybe twice, but of course, no more )
  • Activators must adopt CW contest style (ie sending only ‘599’) to quickly work the pile up down.

Am I wrong ?

73 F6ENO Alain

In reply to DH8DX:

Just feel free to work as YOU want. :wink:

Yes Dan, I know, you often send me a little word as “GD” and “73” and it’s nice !
I just ask myself if I have to change my style…

Best 73 Alain

In reply to G3WGV:

  1. Fewer people go through the “apprenticeship” of listening
    for a few years before getting a license. Time was when the newbie
    Radio Amateur already knew all about operating etiquette. These days
    people jump straight in with their nice new call signs.

So very true, John.

Peter

In reply to F6ENO:

Alain,

The activator is always King.

The good chaser listens first, then adopts the style and speed of the activator, who alone decides the method of working.

73
Roy G4SSH