Cockaigne for points collectors?

Bob, The summits you mentioned are in the database. That means they are OK for both chasers and activators.
In my opinion it is not the activator’s job to check if each and every summit meets the requirements. For the Chech Republic this was done by the AM back in 2007 and the results were authorized by the MT.
It has been almost 10 years since the work was done. In those days there was no supporting software to do this extensive job. I am only grateful that OK was put on the SOTA-map.
There even may have been a language problem between the MT with English as their native language and the AM with English as his 2nd, 3rd or even 4th language.
With the recent revisions of the DM, OE and HB9 summits I expect that the MT has a plan for the rest of the summits. Unfortunately I am not aware of this plan. A one page transition plan would save a lot of discussion.
If this thread is an open invitation to report doubts then France, South Africa and even my own country the Netherlands require attention.

73, Hans PB2T

1 Like

Agree with you Hans.

“if a summit is in the database showing active for the current date, it is VALID”.

Ed.

Let us be clear about this. The person to report doubts to is the AM of the Association, the AM is the person that is responsible for the upkeep of the summit list, it is his responsibility to keep track of any resurveys resulting in revisions of summit (and equally important, col) heights, it is his responsibility to take advantage of the annual opportunity to revise the summit lists in the database via the MT. The MT will only take action if the AM fails to do his job or if the task is too big for him to tackle without assistance.

This thread is no doubt entertaining, but it is a very inefficient way of getting doubts acted on as there is no guarantee that either the AM or the relevant members of the summit team in the MT will read this thread.

So, if you have doubts about a summit, you

  1. Contact the AM giving him the relevant information, and

  2. If the reply of the AM is unsatisfactory, you only then contact the MT via the channels provided on the website.

Number 1) above is to be found in the FAQ file on the website, in view of the number of queries the MT receive that are covered by the FAQ file, I would guess that it is by far the least used of the SOTA facilities!:grinning:

Brian

1 Like

Hans describes the situation accurately.

If it is in the database then it is OK.

Older associations were surveyed with very much poorer tools and poorer quality data. This will mean there are summits which, when evaluated with today’s tools and data, will fail validation.

We have said that all the old P100 associations in Europe needed checking with modern tools/data to ensure they were the same standard as new associations which were checked better tools and data.

HB9, OE and DM have been resurveyed. OK, OM, HA and SV spring to mind as being P100 and in need of checking. In addition we had Italy which was incomplete and inaccurate. Italy was missing a lot of easier summits amongst the many problems. We decided to fix the problems with location errors and missing summits in Italy as the next re-evaluation task as it was in a much worse state than other associations. They may be summits which are not P100 in OK and the association probably should be P150 but at least the data is quite “accurate”. If there is a summit listed then there probably is a summit at the location unlike Italy where the are errors running to 10’s of kms in positioning.

The summits team has nicely split itself into groups such that in the US covering North America we have Guy N7UN and Elliott K6EL and many helpers working on checking existing American associations and adding new associations like Alaska. In Asia and the Pacific we have Andrew VK3ARR and helpers checking existing VK associations, helping with updates to JA and bringing new associations such as ZL and E51 etc. That leaves the rest of the summit team to work on re-evaluations and new associations. It means a lot of the work on new associations has zero impact on the resurveying work and we are still in a position to add new associations in Europe and its close borders.

OK is a vibrant and active association but we aware there are summits which are not P100. It certainly needs work. The question is do we do it next once Italy is corrected. Or do we look at a quieter association such as HA or SV next? They all need doing at some point. Some activators spotted there were less difficult points to be gained in OK. They also found a beautiful country and nice people that was a great place to visit never mind the SOTA summits.

What we did decide was that DL would be the last of the old European associations to be re-evaluated as DM was one of the first. The result of this is there would be significant change in Germany then a fairly long period of no change followed by changes again (probably, I haven’t looked at DL data).

I can’t say when OK will be re-evaluated other than it will be done. We’re all clever enough to understand that it will lose summits to bring it into line with other associations. If this bothers you then go and visit the country, enjoy the food, countryside, people, beer and have some SOTA fun sooner rather than later. If it doesn’t bother you then you should still go and visit OK. I say that based on the beautiful photos I’ve seen of the country, from talking to people who have been to OK from the UK who had a wonderful time there and from talking to many OK radio amateurs.

My MT colleague Brian is correct in saying people should contact the AM if they think there is an error (or missing summit). Although in this case it is most likely that rather than the odd summits being invalidated we would wait till we fully re-evaluate the association.

3 Likes

Brian,

This may look great on paper. In practice it doesn’t always work.
In the past I contacted 4 AM’s to bring errors to their attention. The score for a proper follow up is 25%.
Sylvia OE5YYN did extremely well when I reported that I couldn’t find OE/KT-176. Within hours she replied with a map that showed the position of the Eckberg and she promised that a correction will be made in the next version of the database.
Now the remaining 75%:
In February 2013 I activated ZS/FS-018. The location is about 1.5 km from the actual summit. The Region Manager reported this to his Association Manager, suggesting an update of the database. There is still no corrected location. This doesn’t give me hope that a suggestion to take a closer look at the prominence of South African summits will be followed up. As a guest of South Africa I don’t feel comfortable to go to the MT to complain.
In 2013 I contacted my own AM to point out that for PA/PA-005 there is a nearby higher summit. PA0HRM didn’t want to make the change. I decided not to file an official complaint. Before I know I have a new job!
Earlier this month I tried to contact the French AM to report that F/MC-160 and F/MC-229 are the same summit. So far I haven’t heard from F5NEP. If he replies I will also make him aware that for the other three F/MC summits I visited the prominence needs to be checked.

Andy MM0FMF, thank you for giving a bit more background information. I will simply use the database as it stands and will enjoy countries with more summits than the four one pointers that we have in the Netherlands.

73, Hans PB2T

1 Like

You say it doesn’t always work, but you did not follow the procedure given in my post two hours ago - it won’t work if you don’t do it right!:grinning: As I said above, “If the reply of the AM is unsatisfactory, you only then contact the MT via the channels provided on the website.” If you won’t contact the MT then no progress can be made as the MT won’t be aware of the problem.

One element to be aware of is time. Suppose somebody draws the attention of the AM to an apparent anomaly. If the AM follows correct procedure he will check the summit against various sources of data, he may even make an inspection on the ground, and if he decides that a change is necessary then the new data will be included in the next update - but if in the meanwhile he has missed his update slot then the update will go forward in the following year. A member of the MT will then run his own check, and then the database will be amended as part of a group of such amendments at the end of the month. In other words it can take more than a year to process an amendment. With 116 current Associations (and over 100,000 summits) and more appearing each month updates have to follow a schedule or the MT could be overwhelmed!

Brian

Brian,

By contacting the AM I did follow the FAQ’s
Your 2) was just added. If it is not added to the FAQ’s the SOTA users will not be aware.
You have convinced me to contact the MT to complain that my AM didn’t follow up on my suggestion to make a correction for PA/PA-005.

73, Hans PB2T

I wonder if my message to the MT has arrived. An acknowledgement would be nice.

73, Hans PB2T

I brought this up some time ago with the MT after having sent a message to them, on the 21st December 2013, via the SOTA website Contact page and having received no acknowledgment. This was the pertinent part of what I wrote afterward:

It would be nice if, when a user sends a message to one of the MT via this Contact page, a confirmation email could be sent to the user. In this way, he/she would know that the message got through, and would also have a reference of what message got sent, and when. This is, after all, a standard way of acknowledging such messages, and its’ implementation could only serve to further enhance the user’s sense of involvement in the SOTA scheme.

The reply, from Jon GM4ZFZ, included the following:

This is a good idea … thanks. I am currently working on porting the website to a new platform and will bear this in mind.

Since then - two and a half years later! - no progress has been made on this. Now, I understand that creating a new version of a website is not without it’s problems, but this is really not a difficult thing to program - I (and many others besides!) have been doing exactly this sort of thing for over twenty years, so I know to a penny the “cost” of doing this.

Right now, after you have sent your message to the MT

  • you have no idea of whether the message was received or not - do you try to send it again?;
  • one often uses ONLY the text-box provided in the contact page to compose the message: unless you do a <Ctrl>+C copy of the contents of the textbox just before sending, you have no permanent record of what you actually wrote;
  • this might have consequences later if the MT decide to take issue with what you had written - if you have no copy of what you sent, it’s only their word that counts;
  • there’s an issue of tact involved here - not sending an acknowledgment is inconsiderate, impolite and lazy, and says quite clearly to the user that “we’re too busy or important to send you a thank-you”.

Which attitude needs quite clearly to be changed.

Rob

Sorry Hans. We didn’t know how to break the news to you that when we looked at PA after your input, we found that 50% of the summits will have to be deleted. We’ll get on with this as quickly as possible.

Andy, Without using Landserf I came to the same conclusion. I have no problem with the possible reduction of summits in the Netherlands. Those who want to make mountaingoat in the Netherlands only, will then need 500 years instead of 250 years.

73, Hans PB2T

1 Like

Then again, as long as the activators are mobile, a trip over the (open) border into Belgium, Luxembourg or Germany can provide some alternative summits that are not too far away.

Ed.

Hi Ed, Did my activations in 30 associations so far. Now that HB9DST beat me I need to travel more.

73, Hans

1 Like

Ooo-err - perhaps we’d better bring forward our plans for a trip to bag PA :-s

Yes, especially as these will be on the “to do” list ahead of Troweir and Kirriereoch. :wink:

Well done - I’ve activated only across 8 associations and two continents so far (and moved house to do that), so you’re a LONG way ahead of me - but you know what - it doesn’t matter - SOTA is about challenging yourself not competing with others … or so they say.

73 Ed.

1 Like

There is an award for activating in multiple associations. You’ve already got to Bronze Ed. You’re only 2 off Silver. The nearest for you are probably HB9 and HB0. Or next time you’re over in G you could pop up to GM, it’s not too far from your old home to GM. Probably Lamberton Hill SS-286 would be the easiest as it’s a few minutes from the A1.

Hi Andy, Yes I know about the Mountain Explorer award - my comment “it doesn’t matter” is that it “shouldn’t” matter that some one else has activated more associations than me, as SOTA is a self challenge rather than a competition against others - except in the SOTA challenges of course.

It’d be nice to activate in GM and a holiday with my brother and sister to the Isle of Skye is tentatively planned for next year. Then of course GW isn’t too far away from my family’s UK homes either…

HB9 was planned for Friedrichshafen last year - perhaps this year I’ll manage it.

73 Ed.

There are some easier summits on Skye for when you don’t have an entire Everest expedition with you and then there’s The Cuillin Ridge! ISTR your brother is licenced so you don’t have to bother with bringing too much radio kit with you which is always a plus.

Isn’t that the route where a mountain bike is highly recommended for :wink:

73 Stephan, DM1LE

3 Likes