In reply to MM0FMF:
Yes.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
Such equipment could be anywhere, you could
probably site one in every continent and gain the highest level SOTA
awards with little expenditure of skill and effort by comparison with
conventional stations
Buy an FT2000 and throw up a wire at home vs set up remote controlled stations on every continent. I think I can see which one requires most skill and effort.
73
Richard G3CWI
In reply to G8ADD:
But it’s legit and doesn’t use any remote technology.
Looking for loopholes is counter productive 
As the number of remote receivers actually in use can probably counted on the fingers of a fingerless man’s hand there is little to be gained from discussing them.
I thought for a moment the rain had stopped but sadly no. As I have the house to myself and there is nobody to complain, I have the speaker covers off and the Primare wound up to 11 whilst Messrs. Donaldson, Willette, Green and Bailey continue tear it up ( “Here 'Tis” Blue Note RVG 24bit re-master).
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to MM0FMF:
Gawd, I haven’t heard anything from Donaldson for yonks, Andy! Its a good title, though, or so thought The Who, The Yardbirds and Crawdaddys!
I thought there were a couple of remote Rx’s in operation, have they been switched off?
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
There probably are some RX’s available somewhere. I was never that phased by them apart for antenna testing. With RBN now, antenna testing is easy, just call CQ ANT TEST de MM0FMF and see what RBN shows.
Old Lou Donaldson is a nice change as he’s much less beboppy than many of my favourite sax players. We’ve had Kenny Burrell’s Midnight Blue on since then, Donald Fagan’s Kamakiriad is just winding down. So West Coast and mellow it’s almost a parody of itself! All engineers and producers should be forced to listen to it and be told “look you can record and mix instruments and voices that sound clear and dynamic, it doesn’t need to sound like someone has filled your ears with cotton wool”. The trombone solo on “Teahouse on the Tracks” is wonderfully random and crisp, I really should find out who it is.
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to MM0FMF:
Sorry for the brief OT diversion: Andy, do you have Ken Hyder’s Talisker - Dreaming of Glen Isla? Its superb and superbly recorded!
Back to the topic: This is a difficult juggling act, when with every passing year more is possible we have to distinguish between the possible and the desirable. Which possibilities distort the original concept of SOTA to the point where it breaks? For me the idea of remote controlled equipment is the breaking point, but then LA9XSA reminds me that there may be people who could not participate at all without such equipment. Do we say “Hard luck” to them, or do we accept this equipment in its entirety, or do we accept it but place restrictions on it, and if so what restrictions? In the end, of course, the MT decides, but they don’t operate in a vacuum!
73
Brian G8ADD
The government regulations and the DXCC rules consider the location of the actual station equipment to decide which callsign and DXCC entity to use, and that also applies to SOTA (you have to follow the license terms). For example, if you operate a remote base station in VE2 while you’re driving in the GW area, you are still a VE2?? fixed station, you’re not GW/VE2???/M.
I can use two club stations (not remote), and the SOTA rules would let me log chaser contacts from them (I would just set “Call used” to LA1K or LA1NVG). On one of the stations (LA1NVG), I would have to set up the station from scratch since it doesn’t own any equipment, while the other club station (LA1K) was founded in 1923 and had a prominent antenna farm before I joined the club.
In the former case, the amount of effort to set up is more than using my home call; in the latter case there’s almost no effort to set up the station but there might be an effort in getting in traveling to the club station and finding an operating time when there isn’t a loud party with music going on inside :-).
It’s difficult to account for all the various challenges involved without making the rules very intricate, I think.
If somebody wants to use Echolink on simplex for chasing, that’s fine by me. It’s not a contest after all - it’s an incentive to visit summits and put them on the air.
In reply to MM0FMF:
Stand inside the AZ call CQ and hear CQ on handy outside AZ, step out side AZ, pickup handy reply using my other full call and hear signal on 817 inside AZ, put handy down and walk back inside AZ and reply.
That doesn’t count as a QSO; that is two one-way transmissions from one station to a station that has gone QRT. It might be against the license terms too.
It could also be considered a terrestial repater contact.
In reply to LA9XSA:
That doesn’t count as a QSO;
Oh yes it does! (Getting into imminent Panto season.) Your reasons for it being invalid are as specious as mine for suggesting it’s a way of chasing “hard” continents.
The point is most of us can’t be bothered with the hassle. It’s easier to have normal QSOS. The needless tightening of the rules to stop some possible methods of having QSOs that some think are OK and others don’t like isn’t a good use of time.
In the end it’s down to the person involved.
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to G8ADD:
In the end, of course, the MT decides, but they don’t operate in a vacuum!
Here is one more bit of information that the MT may wish to consider in their discussions: I see nothing in the current General Rules that would prohibit me from bringing my laptop along on my next activation and setting up a temporary remote base at the summit. The other members of my Activation Team could then activate the summit along with me, but do so from their homes. If each made at least 4 QSO’s, they would be entitled to the same activation points as me, including any applicable bonus points.
The reason this is possible is the definition of Operating Position on page 6: “The precise location of the transmitter that is being used by the Activator for the purposes of Activating a summit”. If you accept that a remote base is not the same as a terrestrial repeater, all of the Rules for Activators would thus be met for such an Expedition.
There is one exception, however. A remote base at the summit would not be usable if the summit happens to have been issued a reference number in two or more associations. That is because 3.7.1 #13 redefines Operating Position to be “the position of the Operator” in such a case.
For what it’s worth, my opinion as a relative newcomer to SOTA is that the current rules are superb and need not be changed. In Mike’s example above, would it be any more “sporting” if he were to fly to Germany and directly use the radio at his brother-in-law’s house? Flying to Germany takes less skill than setting up and using a remote base. If one were to decide to prohibit the use of remote bases, shouldn’t one also invalidate chaser contacts made from a different DXCC entity (or more than X kilometers from your home location)?
SOTA is not a competition, and the current rules allow the participants a great deal of freedom in pursuing their personal goals. If Mike feels it is important to physically touch the radio, that is fine. If someone else doesn’t care about the physical touch aspect, that is fine too. The stated purpose of SOTA is to “encourage Amateur Radio based activity from the summits of hills and mountains in countries around the world”. It seems to me that any and all of these operating techniques are consistent with that purpose.
As to setting up a temporary remote base on a summit, I don’t see that as making a mockery of the award scheme. I’m thankful to the many chasers who have contacted me on summits, and without them a successful activation would not be possible. There may be some chasers who would like to do an activation but can’t for one reason or another. Letting them experience the thrill of making contacts from a summit by virtual means might be a neat way of showing my appreciation for their efforts.
73,
Eric, KU6J
Since the start of the SOTA programme, we have often referred to a very important phrase embedded in the SOTA General Rules: “The spirit of the programme”. Often, all you have to do to determine if something is acceptable or not is look to your own conscience.
I know someone who lives in a very bad VHF location, and he has set up a remote 2m station at a friend’s QTH about 40 miles away. He has set this up with his own gear, and uses the /A when making contacts via this facility. Suppose he makes chaser contacts via this approach, then I would argue that if he logged them in the Database with callsign used /A, then this is in the spirit of the programme.
If someone tried to claim the Shack Sloth award exclusively through contacts made via the WebSDR in Holland, then that to me would be outwith the spirit of the programme. That would be my personal view.
This is a far reaching discussion. Should chaser logs include a number of different home, portable and mobile locations, and operating from several different DXCC entities? Some major awards in the hobby would not accept this. I am referring back here to the original question about the idea of driving your car to a high spot and chasing from there (anyone remember “Chaser Central” from the early days?). Or, heaven forbid, walking up a mountain and getting your chaser points through summit-to-summit contacts. That’s tantamount to cheating, surely?
My view is stated above, but I accept that there are strong arguments on both sides. That’s the thing with this hobby, it just throws up so many possibilities. I am just recovering from an intense 12 hour shift with the G5D team in the CQWW CQ contest. I didn’t honestly anticipate that scenario when I got my B license in order to do 2m FM repeater mobile nattering back in 2001!
Talking of Echolink, does anyone fancy another SOTA chat sometime?
73,
Tom M1EYP
In reply to M1EYP:
Talking of Echolink, does anyone fancy another SOTA chat sometime?
Yes I would. Don’t quiet know what happened to the net before just seemed to die!! Last time we held it on Saturdays which might account for the lack of interest then as most folk were committed to other things.
Peter
G1FOA
In reply to M1EYP:
“Or, heaven forbid, walking up a mountain and getting your chaser points through summit-to-summit contacts. That’s tantamount to cheating, surely? ;)”
I hope not, I normally only go up hills to Chase and do a bit of Activating while I there:)
73,
Colin
M0XSD.
I don’t think there is a need for more SOTA rules for remote bases for chasers and SWLs, beyond following the license terms. However, if there really is a loophole for activators not actually being on the summit, maybe that needs clarifying (even though that seems to be a clear violation of the spirit of the programme).
In reply to MM0FMF:
Oh yes it does!
No. Either your two radios is considered one station or two stations. If you consider it one station, the whole station is either inside or outside the activation zone. If it’s two stations, one has to go QRT for the other to go QRV.
Likewise, you can’t bring a tape recording of CQ calls from 2006, answer them from the summit, and get signal reports back by email after you came home from the summit.
In reply to LA9XSA:
If it’s two stations, one has to go QRT for the other to go QRV.
This must be some local LA rule because there’s nothing in the UK licence to stop it.
Andy
MM0FMF
In reply to MM0FMF:
No, it’s about what can be considered to be two distinct stations.
The UK license terms are actually more restrictive than the Norwegian license about what callsign modifier you can use from a given location.
It is the participant AND the station (tx and aerial) that must be within 25m vertically of the summit. Just like SOTA generally, it is about people, not just gear. That is why your SOTA points accrue to the individual, rather than to the FT-897 in your shack.
Tom M1EYP
In reply to M1EYP:
It is the participant AND the station (tx and aerial) that must be
within 25m vertically of the summit.
Hi Tom,
Perhaps that is the intent, but I can’t find where that requirement is actually stated in the General Rules. Can you please cite where that is?
3.7.1 #4 says “The Operating Position must be within the permitted Vertical Distance of the Summit, as defined in Rule 3.5.”. Up in Section 2 (Definitions) the term Operating Position is defined as “The precise location of the transmitter that is being used by the Activator for the purposes of Activating a summit”. That definition says nothing about the location of the participant, it only refers to the transmitter.
Up above I pointed out the one exception that I could find: the rare case of a summit that has been issued a reference number in two or more associations. In that rare case and “unless the licensing regulations decree otherwise”, 3.7.1 #13 redefines the term Operating Position to be “the position of the Operator”.
Whether we are talking about the usual case of a summit having only one reference number or the rare case of it having two or more, I cannot find any text in the General Rules that requires BOTH the station and the participant to be in the summit’s activation zone.
73,
Eric, KU6J
You may have identified something which needs to be addressed in the next update of the GR Eric. In the meantime we’ll get by on common sense and participants acting “in the spirit of the programme”. Placing a remote transmitter on a summit to be operated from someone’s living room is not in the spirit of the programme!
Tom M1EYP
In reply to M1EYP:
You may have identified something which needs to be addressed in the
next update of the GR Eric. In the meantime we’ll get by on common
sense and participants acting “in the spirit of the programme”.
Placing a remote transmitter on a summit to be operated from someone’s
living room is not in the spirit of the programme!
Thanks for the clarity, Tom. Given the specific intent and purpose that I described above, I would have erroneously believed such an action to be consistent with the spirit of the programme:
“I’m thankful to the many chasers who have contacted me on summits, and without them a successful activation would not be possible. There may be some chasers who would like to do an activation but can’t for one reason or another. Letting them experience the thrill of making contacts from a summit by virtual means might be a neat way of showing my appreciation for their efforts.”
Here was my thought process:
-
The dedicated chasers who make the programme’s success possible would get to virtually experience what it’s like to operate from a summit, since any number of circumstances could make it difficult or impossible for them to do so otherwise (health issues, living far away from any summits, etc.)
-
I’d gain nothing in terms of scoring other than the activation points I would have accrued anyway. It would actually cost me a significant amount of additional time and effort in planning the activation, testing the equipment, coordinating with the other participants, carrying extra gear to the summit, etc.
-
There would be no negative effects to other programme participants since SOTA is not a competition. Even if it were, the operators of the remote base in this instance would have been chasers who rarely if ever activate summits, so they would be no ‘competitive threat’ to whatever group of activators actually do treat this as a competition.
No worries, you’ve saved me from getting into an unfortunate situation where Americans might comment that “no good deed goes unpunished”.
73,
Eric KU6J
===========================================
Free SOTA Spot Monitor Software:
http://www.ku6j.com
In reply to KU6J:
“1) The dedicated chasers who make the programme’s success possible would get to virtually experience what it’s like to operate from a summit, since any number of circumstances could make it difficult or impossible for them to do so otherwise (health issues, living far away from any summits, etc.)”
I agree that the dedicated chasers would experience what the band sounds like to an activator, but the experience of a summit is so very much more than that, and the rest of the experience would remain a closed book to them. A significant proportion of activators have climbing or hill-walking backgrounds and welcome a chance to graft amateur radio onto their love of the high places. For some of us climbing a mountain and reaching the summit is almost a mystical experience, sought for its own sake and cherished in the memory of those “blue remembered hills”. Some of the chasers share this love and chase the activations for the vicarious experience of the summits and the memories that pop up when a once-climbed hill is chased…and some of them know that their climbing days are done and value their chases all the more keenly for that knowledge.
73
Brian G8ADD