I know the practice of two operators out together activating a summit is commonplace. On occasion activator No.2 (or each activator in turn)leaves the activation zone by descending more than 25m. The “chaser” then completes a chaser QSO on VHF using a handheld. This gives activator No.2 a chaser point and possibly a unique summit as a chaser - activator No.1 gets another QSO in the log.
I confess to having done this once - when I visited the island summit of Ailsa Craig GM/SS-246 with the M1EYP group in 2009. I worked Jimmy (then MM3EYP/P now M0HGY/P) from 50m below the top. It was and still is my only chance of working Ailsa Craig as a chaser.
I haven’t scanned the database in great detail to establish if this practice is commonplace, but by looking at the SOTA Complete table it is fairly easy to see that the practice does takes place from time to time by some operators.
I can see that doing this is within the SOTA rules - any comments folks?
Hi Phil, I would think that at least 95% of activations are undertaken by a solitary activator, if that is true then the scenario you describe can’t be all that common. That said, it is within the rules and I can’t see anything wrong with it. I recall quite a few activation reports that mention working a co-activator in order to qualify a hill.
O/T Good signal from you today on 12m & nice to work Ken GM0AXY on backscatter, 12m keeps surprising me.
73, Steve.
ps, pleasure to work Jack GM4COX/P s2s on 2m, Ailsa Craig to Shining Tor.
As I am high up on the SOTA complete table I hope the accusation does not include me?
I have never chased or qualified a summit by using someone else on the same hill even though I have had more than enough opportunity on some very unique hills.
I see the practice as “cheating” and would not get involved. But if someone wants to get their “star” that way does it bother me that much? Not really.
Carolyn
The many summits I have chased, being an active chaser, just gives me more hills to visit to complete in the future :o)
I take the same view on this as Carolyn; not a practice that I follow at all. However, given circumstances where there was little chance of anyone else activating a summit any time soon (like Ailsa Craig) I am sure my resolve would weaken.
Unless a few more activations of the SW one pointers take place I think we may need to go back to apply this technique so that I can cross them off - but it would be a separate activation specially set up as a chase
I can see that doing this is within the SOTA rules - any comments folks?
I remember seeing a huge discussion on the matter somewhere, but it might have been on the WOTA site rather than here. Wherever it was, I’m pretty sure the conclusion was that the practice wasn’t “in the spirit” of the programme, even if the rules didn’t (quite) exclude it.
73, Rick M0LEP
Edit: It was on the WOTA site, and led to a new WOTA rule that reads thus:
“Contacts between stations on the same fell do not count either to qualify an activation or for chaser points. In this context “on the same fell” means anywhere on the fell from the nearest road or valley separating it from a neighbouring fell to the summit.”
It is within the rules, that should be the end of the story. Activators are welcome to set themselves further personal limitations, but that doesn’t change the rules for others.
On a couple of occasions I have passed activators while descending a hill and subsequently worked them before I was off the hill, but well below the AZ, and I am comfortable with this…as were they.
My first experience of this was inth’ old days, probably 2003. I arrived on Shining Tor G/SP-004 and found Alan M1EYO (SOTA’s first ever Mountain Goat) already on summit. Alan left the summit before me.
Sometime later, I had a response to a CQ call from M1EYO/M saying he was at the Cat & Fiddle car park. This would technically fail the introduced rule in WOTA, but it struck me (and still does) as within the spirit.
I have also never had an issue with getting well out of the activation zone in order to give a colleague on the summit a much needed 4th contact that was seemingly never going to come! Thankfully that has been a rare occurence.
On the other hand, there is the technical possibility of two participants stood next to each other either side of the AZ boundary (25m contour below the summit) working each other. That would be not at all in the spirit of the programme!
Tom, in your example stated above, I also see no problem with this. I do however see an issue where members of the same expedition team are moving out of the activation zone to work other memebers of the team, and I believe that this is what Phil was getting at.
Indeed, on my very first SOTA activation during ascent I met a certain activator by the name of Tom, who was making his descent. I was worked by said activator, when I was at the summit, from his car! I consider the contact perfectly fine and within the spirit of SOTA.
This would technically fail the introduced rule in WOTA, but it struck me
(and still does) as within the spirit.
Yeah, that sounds entirely reasonable. WOTA also only requires a single contact to get the points, and there were reports at the time of folk (allegedly) working in pairs walking from fell to fell together, activating and chasing each other (and nobody else) so I guess a stricter rule makes sense.
Having seen the potentially divisive nature of the various views above, how about this theoretical situation?
Let us imagine G9AAA lives in a house within the Activation Zone of a SOTA summit (perhaps G/SE-007 Crowborough). Contacts with him will not count for SOTA as he does not comply with various SOTA rules. However, if SOTA activator G9BBB/P visits that summit, can G9AAA work him and claim chaser points?
One might jump to the conclusion that the answer must be no, but such a QSO does not appear to be in breach of the General Rules (3.8 Rules for Chasers). Furthermore, unless G9AAA indicates his location as being within the Activation Zone, G9BBB/P can legitimately count the QSO as one of the four required to claim the activation points.
In reply to G1INK: Jim KK1W and I often go on activations together (probably at least 50% of the time) and while it has occurred to us that one of us could hike down a bit and chase the summit, we don’t bother. Although Jim often has his handheld (for APRS) I seldom take my HT anyway. HF CW is so much more fun! (Not much DX on 2 meters!) On the other hand, I don’t see it as a big no no, since there are summits you can drive up and hike down out of the activation zone with gear and back up to activate the summit. What’s the difference? For that reason I do not feel that it is a violation of the rules or even “spirit” of the game.
73,
Frandy N1FJ
(Jim and I are usually operating as NE1SJ)
Having seen the potentially divisive nature of the various views
above, how about this theoretical situation?
Let us imagine G9AAA lives in a house within the Activation Zone of a
SOTA summit (perhaps G/SE-007 Crowborough). Contacts with him will not
count for SOTA as he does not comply with various SOTA rules. However,
if SOTA activator G9BBB/P visits that summit, can G9AAA work him and
claim chaser points?
One might jump to the conclusion that the answer must be no, but such
a QSO does not appear to be in breach of the General Rules (3.8 Rules
for Chasers). Furthermore, unless G9AAA indicates his location as
being within the Activation Zone, G9BBB/P can legitimately count the
QSO as one of the four required to claim the activation points.
In fact if G9BBB/P claims the above contact he is breaking rule 3.7.1.9 which states that “QSOs with others within the same Activation Zone do not count towards the QSO total.” Assuming that he does not know that G9AAA lives within the AZ, he might accidentally claim an invalid contact, but if he is an honourable person and subsequently finds out where G9AAA lives he should delete that contact. This is a situation that could occur: there is a club station within the AZ on Ruardean Hill, G/WB-021, though I have never heard any activity from it during my few visits!
You raise a valid point about G9AAA living in the AZ and being able to claim the chaser points for that summit. Clearly this is not against the current rules, but should it be? I would think so, myself. It is apposite that the question should arise at this time, because right now the rules are in the process of being revised and updated!
I’m pretty sure the conclusion was that the practice wasn’t “in the
spirit” of the programme, even if the rules didn’t (quite) exclude
it.
I do too.
Marcial EA2BDS and me have made almost all my activations together, and while speaking with him today, we realized than we have not even imagined the situation.
There is a similar matter on the “Vertices Geodesicos” spanish award where, if you activate a summit, you can claim it automatically, no qso needed either!
Perhaps it could be understood in case of a rare DX island (I think that this type of out-of-the-record agreement is allowed by some intl. DX award orgs), but, come on…
In reply to G6WRW:
.
Actually, Carolyn, you and I did that precise thing on VHF, at my request, with you at the peak and me down the hill. I thought I heard the gnashing of teeth from your side, and now I know the cause.
Since I already had that hill in my complete column, I wanted you and Helen in my chaser log because you’re both famous. I hope that absolves me from the hot glare of suspicion.
I cannot see anything wrong with doing an activation and then leaving the activation area and working a fellow activator as a chaser. I have never done it but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t do it in the future. In WOTA you cannot do it as it is against the rules which I accept. If the SOTA MT don’t want us to do it the rules need to be changed otherwise it is an option I will always consider if I need the contact for qualification.
In reply to G4OOE:
It’s fine in my book Nick, I’ve done it with several people when out activating. It seems fine as the chaser has had to climb the summit anyway. Those who don’t want to do this don’t have to, and as Steve says most activations are done by lone activators.
Andy,MM0FMF
(struggling with an android touch keyboard as my Bluetooth keyboard is not happy)
You correctly identified that I was not happy with the situation and that is the reason I didn’t put you in my activator log, you are in Helen’s though, which gave you your chase.
What is confusing is I thought I had chased you when we were on the other side of the Bay on Hawk Hill (not a SOTA) at 22:58utc and you were on Mt Davidson hoping to work us on another summit, which I thought gave me a complete but you have not logged the contact. If that later contact is incorrect I will delete my chase log and consequently loose a complete.
