Automatic SOTA spotting

In reply to KU6J:

Hi Eric

I think the easiest work-round for this is:-

  1. You may only go up the summits you alerted

0r

  1. If you go up a different one then you cannot use CW in the 2 hour window and if you use CW - NO changing frequency!

But seriously having written a bit of software in my time I know how difficult it is to try and think of all those little traps that catch the software out. Then you let the users try it and see if you can repair it faster than they break it again. But thats why we beta test these things isn’t it?

Best of luck with the venture

Peter
G1FOA

In reply to G1FOA:

I am sure our chasers would spot the correct summit in the event the activator had to change plans. I am not sure there’s a big problem here. Anyways, there are supposed to listen don’t they? hi…

In reply to VA2SG:

Anyways, there are supposed to listen don’t they? hi…

Yes in theory!

Peter
G1FOA

In reply to VA2SG:

Yes they are! That’s a good thing, because I just shut down my software. The same wrong-summit issue happened for N4EX and WA2USA: they alerted for W4V/SH-007 but apparently decided to go to W4V/SH-009 without updating their alert. My software dutifully spotted them (apparently incorrectly) on W4V/SH-007. Garbage in, garbage out. However, they did self-spot themselves on W4V/SH-009 prior to going on the air, so the new algorithm I’m cooking up (override the summit reference in alerts with the summit reference from self-spots) may solve this.

Meanwhile N1EU is back on the air and who knows where he really is. My software thinks he is on W2/GC-013 because that’s what his second alert says (it’s time most closely matches the time of the current spots), but he probably isn’t really there since he was actually there earlier.

{sigh…}

This is all enough to make a software developer pull out his hair. In America we have an expression: “this is why we can’t have nice things!” :wink:

73,

Eric KU6J

===========================================
Free SOTA Spot Monitor Software:
http://www.ku6j.com

Yeah, it’s pretty much an inevitable fact of life that any software automation will spend at least 99% of its time trying to avoid the garbage thrown at it…

Way back when we had a small group of folk at work who had the job of trying to break the stuff we produced before the Real Users got at it. They were pretty good at their job, but even so the Real Users occasionally managed to find some really bizarre way to break things.

Good luck!

73, Rick M0LEP

I just got back from a long day (challenging propagation and weather) and haven’t had a chance to read through the entire thread - I’ll do that tomorrow.

But as far as I can tell, KU6J’s RBN gateway worked flawlessly. I was the one who screwed up, mea culpa. I had pre-loaded text messages in my cell phone for both summits and sent out the wrong ones on the first summit. My spots were wrong, Eric’s RBNgate spots were correct! (because my alerts were correct)

The changing freqs on 40M was correct - I had to keep moving to avoid QRM (never had to do that so often before). The fact that RBNgate followed me was fantastic.

Pedal to the metal with RBNgate - it’s pure gold!!! :wink:

(and I promise to be MUCH more careful with self-spots on my next double activation day)

73,
Barry N1EU

In reply to N1EU:
Thanks Barry, no worries, it’s just good to understand what happened! I’ve put my self-spots-override-alerts algorithm on hold for now. :wink:

As you pointed out in your E-mail to me, the skimmer AA4VV did spot you on the wrong 20m frequency. It also spotted you on the right frequency. Who knows what is going on over at AA4VV but I’ve added him to my Skimmer Exclude filter for now.

I only see two alerts for EU CW activations tomorrow morning (my time) so I’m going to run the gateway overnight and unattended one more time. If the logs look good in the morning, I can hopefully keep it running for the three NA CW activations including one by N4EX and WA2USA.

I’m still not sure what happened regarding summit reference ambiguities during their activation earlier today, but Dennis WA2USA later self-spotted with a “calling cq - correction sorry for mess up” spot so hopefully it was just human error and I won’t have to shut the software down as a precaution like I did today.

73,

Eric KU6J

===========================================
Free SOTA Spot Monitor Software:
http://www.ku6j.com

In reply to KU6J:

Hi Eric and Andy

I have been following this thread with interest. It does look like a leap forward to me. Particularly as it seems to allow activators much more freedom to move away from the traditional (and very busy) SOTA centres of activity and still make contacts with ease. The only down-side is that it makes it hard to have a quiet life as an activator!

Thanks for the work on this!

73

Richard
G3CWI

I’m sipping my morning coffee and it appears that the overnight test run was successful.

RBNGate spotted EA5ER once on 40m and spotted HA5LV twice, first on 30m then later on 20m. RBN also earlier heard HA5LV on 40m at 11:14z, but didn’t send a spot because DL1FU had already spotted him on the same frequency at 1019z. I was using a 60 min setting for how long a Sotawatch spot is considered to be a dupe, so not sending that spot was the correct behavior.

In all cases where a spot was sent, it was the first Sotawatch spot of the station on their frequency. In all cases the summit reference matched their alerts. In summary, it seems to have performed flawlessly.

I’ve also come up with a way that multiple instances of the gateway software could be running for better reliability. A configurable delay of X seconds can be added that takes place before the software performs its final dupe check against Sotawatch (immediately before sending the spot). The primary instance would have X=0, the first backup instance X=20, second backup instance X=40 and so on. If the primary instance is running, its Sotawatch spots would be seen by the secondary instances so they wouldn’t send their dupe spots. If the primary fails, then secondary instance #1 would send it’s delayed spot, secondary instance #2 would see it and not send its dupe spot, etc. Any number of backup instances could thus be deployed anywhere in the world.

I’m not ready to declare this software ready for production use, but it does look promising. :slight_smile:

73,

Eric KU6J

===========================================
Free SOTA Spot Monitor Software:
http://www.ku6j.com

In reply to KU6J:

Whilst I admire the technical ingenuity behind automated CW spotting, I can only be thankful that nobody has come up with a way of doing it for SSB - as yet! - so we can continue to enjoy hunting for activations and manually spotting them! Perhaps I sound like a follower of Captain Ludd, but I like being doing it the old way!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

I understand what you’re saying Brian, contesting and DX-ing used to be a lot more fun for me back when we had to use paper log and dupe sheets, send everything ourselves, and hunt everyone down ourselves since there were no spotting networks. Now it is more of a competition between equipment and technology rather than operators.

On the other hand, I can understand the attractiveness of this capability for CW activators, as it allows them to have an instant pileup no matter what band or frequency they show up on. It might even give people more incentive to learn Morse and join us down on CW band segments.

I’m sorry to say that I have a bit of bad news for you. Over on NASOTA we’re discussing the possibility of extending this capability to spots coming in via QRPSPOTS. They would be matched to alerts in the same way as the RBN spots are now so as to get the summit info and… it would work for SSB/FM too! :frowning:

73,

Eric KU6J

===========================================
Free SOTA Spot Monitor Software:
http://www.ku6j.com

In reply to G8ADD:

I’m with Richard in that this is a huge boost for CW activators in that we can spread ourselves about. No longer do we have to congregate around a few “watering holes” in order to be spotted nor do we need to rely on self spotting and it attendant problems of phone reception etc.

I can understand the delight in doing it the old-school way. But, there seems little point it lugging radio gear about and not working as many chasers as possible. To do that the chasers need to find you ASAP and something like this minimises the time spent between going on the air and that 1st spot.

At a stroke the pressure to call near the QRP frequencies is reduced. I can’t wait to try it this weekend.

Andy
MM0FMF

Just to be sure: If I post NO alert before an activation my calling “CQ Sota” on the summit will not trigger a RBN-extracted spot, right?

So that my be the cure for those NOT happy with an earlier and deeper pileup than already now. For them the possibility to escape an unruly pileup should be there.

On most occasions I enjoy pileups but there are days when I want to operate in a more relaxed fashion. As far as hunting goes, the hunt is more joy than the booty, but YMMV. At least in contesting convenience has quickly won over the challenge

I guess it won´t take too long until some individual skimmers (with some kind of spotting system) come up, tweaked to react to “CQ SOTA” which then needs no callsign announcement per alert on the SOTA-site.

In reply to DL8MBS:

Thats my understanding. No alert, no autospot. Eric will probably confirm.

In reply to DL8MBS:

Just to be sure: If I post NO alert before an activation my calling
“CQ Sota” on the summit will not trigger a RBN-extracted spot, right?

So that my be the cure for those NOT happy with an earlier and deeper
pileup than already now. For them the possibility to escape an unruly
pileup should be there.

That is correct, if there is no corresponding alert you cannot be spotted by the software. I have been thinking of adding an “opt out” capability to address your concern and still allow you to post an alert of your activation. It would allow you to opt out in either of these ways:

  1. Include a codeword such as “NORBNGATE” in the comment for your alert. This would tell my software to ignore your alert entirely, and thus not spot you on Sotawatch during your corresponding activation.

  2. Tell me that you never want to be spotted on any activation, and I can add your callsign to an exclusion file. RBN spots of your callsign would then be discarded at all times, and no spots would ever be sent to Sotawatch.

I haven’t implemented this capability yet but it should be easy enough to do, especially #2 that I can quickly implement. Would you like me to add your callsign to the exclusion list?

73,

Eric KU6J

===========================================
Free SOTA Spot Monitor Software:
http://www.ku6j.com

In reply to KU6J:

On the other hand, I can understand the attractiveness of this
capability for CW activators, as it allows them to have an instant
pileup no matter what band or frequency they show up on. It might even
give people more incentive to learn Morse and join us down on CW band
segments.

I’m sorry to say that I have a bit of bad news for you. Over on NASOTA
we’re discussing the possibility of extending this capability to spots
coming in via QRPSPOTS. They would be matched to alerts in the same
way as the RBN spots are now so as to get the summit info and… it
would work for SSB/FM too! :frowning:

These days, huge pile-ups are the rule rather than the exception here in Europe, Eric.

I’ve never been a fan of five and nine, next please. However, with the huge number of SOTA chasers these days, it’s difficult to get away from it.

Anyway, pile-ups I can handle all day long, however, if you want to get yourself nominated for the SOTA Nobel prize, may I suggest you turn your attention to devising an automated SOTA logging system :wink:

73 Mike
2E0YYY

In reply to all before me:

Late this afternoon I went on an activation to give the RBN-Gateway a try. It worked flawlessly for me and I am deeply impressed! Thanks to all involved in making it happen!

I had waited in the car for the rain to stop (or nearly so). Finally I put out an alert via cell phone and started on my hike. I had choosen a summit with a good likelyhood of cell phone coverage. When I called on 30m I was spotted by G3VQO. I wonder if there were any skimmers on 10MHz. The signals on 10MHz were throughout stronger than usuall, eg I had several “true” 599 reports for UK stations (as per S-meter of KX3). When I moved to 18 MHz I was caught immediately by EI6IZ and the RBN gateway. Unfortunately this resulted in no QSO. I moved to 14 MHz and again: Bingo! Had a spot in no time. I actually watched all this on my smartphone. After some contacts I moved to 21MHz, but this resulted in no spot. Likely that there was no propagation at all on 21MHz. Later back on 7MHz I had a spot via the RBN Gateway again. When returning to 18MHz I produced spots from TF3Y but again did not succeed in any QSO.

These observations confirm that the RBN- Gateway operates flawlessly and is a valuable tool for the activator to get his presence announced. Furthermore it confirms that there is propagation on higher bands but no chasers.

I look forward to my next activation. As others have remarked this tool will certainly help activators when jumping bands and should also lessen the traffic on the established waterhole frequencies.

Thanks again!

Heinz, OE5EEP

P.S: What ingenious piece of software is coming next? May I suggest software that would read a scan from my scribbled logbook and upload a properly formatted log to the SotaDB!

In reply to OE5EEP:

Late this afternoon I went on an activation to give the RBN-Gateway a
try. It worked flawlessly for me and I am deeply impressed! Thanks to
all involved in making it happen!

Heinz,

I’m glad it worked well for you! You were indeed heard by many skimmers on 30m. Here is a listing of all the RBN spots of you:

http://www.reversebeacon.net/dxsd1/dxsd1.php?f=0&c=OE5EEP%2FP&t=dx

The real magic behind all of this is the CW Skimmer software written by Alex VE3NEA, the aggregator software written by Dick W3OA, various contributions by several other people to the development and operation of RBN, the original idea for the Reverse Beacon Network that came from Felipe PY1NB and Pete N4ZR, and all the people running skimmers that produce the spots. All that my software does is to tie a few things together, so the credit should properly go to those people, Andy for coming up with Spotlite (where my software sends the spots), and of course everyone involved with the development and operation of Sotawatch and the SOTA database.

Here is some info regarding the history of the Reverse Beacon Network:

http://www.radio-sport.net/skimmer1.htm

I’m not affiliated with Reverse Beacon Network in any way, and people who like this activation auto-spot functionality might consider making a donation to them. There is a Donate button on their welcome page here:

http://www.reversebeacon.net/index.php

I’ve just finished implementing the “opt out” capability so anyone who doesn’t want to be spotted by RBNGate can send me an E-mail (or post here) and I’ll add their callsign(s) to the list. Thanks to a suggestion by Marc G0AZS I’ve also shortened up the comment text so that these spots don’t waste an additional line in Sotawatch’s spot display web page due to the comment length. These improvements will be in the next compile which will hopefully be ready to go prior to the next EU activation period.

73,

Eric KU6J

===========================================
Free SOTA Spot Monitor Software:
http://www.ku6j.com

In reply to KU6J:

Heinz,

I’m glad it worked well for you! You were indeed heard by many
skimmers on 30m. Here is a listing of all the RBN spots of you:

RBN - Reverse Beacon Network

This is an interesting listing of skimmers that heard my cq! I noticed that only one spot per band is generated from the skimmer reports, which makes sense. But how is the one spot that makes it to SotaWatch/Spots selected?

Interstingly my calls on 18MHz were only heard in Iceland, but neither in Europe nor in NA. Funny propagation!

73 Heinz

In reply to OE5EEP:

But how is the one spot that makes it to SotaWatch/Spots selected?

Heinz, it’s going to be the FIRST spot that makes it to SOTAwatch, as long as it falls within 2hrs of your alert. And every time you change frequency, it will again be the first spot of that new frequency, etc etc

I’ve been checking my RBN spots after every activation for the past 6 months - it’s always interesting. Here in the USA, there is a significant black hole in the southwest where there are no skimmers - every other region of the USA is well covered.

73,
Barry N1EU