Answering CQ SOTA Twice

On the Bands Operating Procedures
21

Jushua

You can do that pretty easily with DXKeeper. You can create the needed locations in TQSL, the LOTW software, then DXKeeper will interface with TQSL and LOTW. You can create a file to upload from DXKeeper and select the proper location created in TQSL or you can do it directly from DXKeeper. It won’t select the proper location automatically you have to do that. You can create locations as defined as Grid Square or as broad as State. So all activations within the parameter(s) selected would use the same location. LOTW also has rules for some awards that all contacts need be be made within a certain radius. Therefore logging all contacts under one location could violate that rule.

Jeff K6QCB

22

All,

I just came back from my third busy, frigid, and exciting activation in three days. These topics here are very relevant, especially for the New Year!

My logs are getting bigger, and my chasers are getting more numerous. There are inevitable conflicts, but it’s still all fun! Limits of patience are being tested though. It’s true that everyone benefits if we can run the piles more efficiently.

Going faster helps, but not everyone benefits. There are many chasers who prefer to go slow, and there are many good reasons why. I try to work with everyone, but there must be limits, especially when my fingers are cold.

Since I activate near the center of the 48 USA states, on multiple bands, I have a lot of chasers. My chasers know that they usually get a contact if I can hear them. I avoid “quick” activations. With so many chasers, some of them seem aggressive, perhaps just because they often hear each other, and some may have to wait for 10 or more chasers before I call them. This has been true particularly on 40M CW lately, because that band is in superb condition in the middle of winter, solar minimum, low QRN, and it’s covering most of the 48 states for me, even at local noon. 30M and 20M are reaching out further, and signals are often really fine where the skip goes.

Many piles take me 20 minutes or more, for one band. This is mostly at 20 wpm, but many querries and repeats are needed due to QRM and conflicts. I don’t like the tail ending, but I agree that it may work for the chaser. I’ve done it chasing as well. You could send your call just once, if you run a big amp and a beam, but this doesn’t help me, especially if more chasers do it. Many of my chasers are right on frequency, within a few Hz, and the only good trick I know if is to turn off my pre-amp and take the loudest one I can copy. Try this if you have not already done it.
Three or four persistent chasers calling can burn a lot of time - try waiting, and you may get in the log sooner.

Here are the worst things that delay the sessions:

  1. Chasers who can’t send their calls right the first time, or the second, etc. Hint: use a memory keyer. Maybe slow down. Consider getting a simpler call…None of us are getting any younger…

  2. Ops who tune up on our frequency - you are stealing everyone’s time. Some of you are doing full power QRO tunes - this is HORRIBLE! Even worse is autotuners tuners that pulse or hunt! Believe me, we all hear your QRM, even if you think your system is OK. Use a tuning bridge, maybe don’t use an amp, or mark the settings for your tuner, use the memory features, etc. Yes, I have done it also in haste, when chasing S2S. I know the feeling. You don’t want to miss out, etc. Please QSY just 500 Hz and tune, then come back and call. This permits me to finish a contact and then you’re next!

  3. Ops who send ANYTHING during an S2S contact. Some of these contacts are barely possible, and ANY noise, just bump your key, and I miss the summit ref the other activator is struggling to send correctly! It’s amazing how many times chasers have transmitted, right when the other SOTA op is sending his tricky SOTA ref through the QSB! Most of my chasers are just incredible about waiting politely for the S2S contacts, and I am grateful for their help. Most SOTA chasers are fine, special operators. There are a few exceptions, probably chasers who are new to SOTA, or who can’t hear what’s going on. Thanks to the rest of you! You help make this activity happy!

  4. Chasers who call me, often repeatedly, but cannot really hear me. These folks waste a lot of time for all of us in the pile. They call, I answer, they don’t respond, I call back again, etc. Sometimes I hear them calling when I’m sending my response! They never heard their RST! Then I have to repeat…I understand they want to log a contact, but it isn’t really a contact if you can’t hear the activator, is it? I know they have a high noise level, or deep QSB happens, or whatever, and all I can say is please don’t call until you really can hear me. Perhaps you can get me on another band…or maybe chase another activator with a better signal to you. I have been on both ends of this, many times, I know, it isn’t black and white. You still need to hear the activator, at least part of the time.

  5. Chasers with bad timing. This may be because they can’t hear, and I’m only running 10 watts, but timing is the key to good chasing. Please call when I’m done with each contact. Many times I have to call CQ to get people I know are out there to wake up and call, or call again.

  6. Operators who call, but are not SOTA chasers, and have no idea what is going on. This happens at least once every session. They call as if I offered a general CQ, and they want to rag-chew, share their location, weather, rig, and other info, etc. Many times I reply and give them a few minutes, because I have empathy, and I understand. What drives me nuts is when they insist on sending my call twice, their call twice, both at the beginning and end of each transmission, as if they think the FCC demands this redundancy! It’s like the novice days in the 1960’s!! This is 2020, and I am very old, as well as old fashioned. How can this be??

We need to move ahead. We share these amazing HF bands. Miracles happen! Excellent operators are working me S2S on 40M, from the Rockies to the Appalachians, even at noon. W2SE and KG3W are often chasing me on 40M. I heard K9IR on 80M, and worked her S2S on 60M when she was in Arkansas, in the middle of the day. ZL1BYZ got me today and yesterday. EA2IF, EA2LU, and their friends are doing such a good job of chasing me that they are QRM sometimes when I’m trying to work chasers in the USA!! It’s actually wonderful!

The bands are not dead!! Just different!

Most of us totally realize how cool this all is, and this is partly why we do SOTA. No two SOTA ops are alike, though, and conflicts are inevitable. The structure of SOTA, the work of the MT and the association managers, the changes that improve the framework we rely on, this and other group websites, all help to minimize conflicts and let the miracles and magic happen!

Here we are in 2020, and we are fortunate and delighted to be able to participate in this evolving activity we call SOTA. Thanks to all of you as we go forward and spend more time on summits and on the air this New Year!

73,

George (Carey)
KX0R

11 Likes
23

Hi Brian
Yes, you noticed correctly I have also noticed that behaviour on myself during the pile up.
As an example I hear the first chaser calling “HB9” followed by the next one where i also only copy “HB9” and so on but the last one i copy HB9xyz. Now i can not reply with “I heared a HB9 station” since almost everyone is calling with HB9. That would result in more confusion since every HB9 station thinks i meant them. But i can answer the last one where the callsign did not get scrambled.
Then this last station will be happy and the pileup got a bit smaller.
If the first caller managed to send the callsign comepletly before other chasers transmit i will answer it first. But this is not always the case.
Often I just have to answer the station where i copy the call sign best independent of if it was the first.
73 Sabrina HB3XTZ

24

I would love to work all the chasers too, but weather conditions do not always permit that. I had to cut short my activation on OH/KI-068 Kuertunturi last Tuesday due to windchill with feels like temperature of -15 °C / 5 °F. There might be some way to make the CW operation more comfortable in these activations though.

73, Jaakko oh7bf/ac1bb

25

It doesn’t really matter whether we (activators) work the first chaser we hear in the pile or the last. Most activators I know will work their way through the list (unless there’s a good reason such as weather, malfunction etc). I stop when there’s no one left to talk to.
No prizes for being first in the log and no demerits for being last!

2 Likes
26

In my humble opinion these 2 important aspects are the key:

1- We chasers MUST listen carefully and call ONLY when we can hear the activator. We MUST always listen and remain QUIET, listening when the activator asks for a callsign different to ours and keep listening without sending anything nor tuning up until we hear the activator transmit the last over, i.e. TU, 73, QRZ? or whatever.

2- an activator should always pick up a chaser and make a complete QSO with him/her after each and every CQ call, QRZ? or whatever is sent. The bigest SOTA pileup will quickly get thinner and thinner that way until full extintion in a matter of 20 or 25 minutes max. If an activator calls CQ or QRZ? but is unable to pick up a chaser’s callsing, thus needing repeats, that exasperates the chasers and works against their patience and discipline. Activators should work their operating skills until they get to a point that they are able to work the pile up efficiently. Not only working all the chasers calling but doing it in a consistent way, preferably the quickest possible way too.

73,

Guru

2 Likes
27

Although I activate from time to time I am primarily a chaser, and I have been on the other end of this problem many, many times. I NEVER call a station if I can’t hear him - but QSB happens. It is part of the game, you have to deal with it as best as you can. Many times I call a station that I am copying at a comfortable S5 and hear him come back to me and then sink under the noise. No report, I have to ask for a repeat, sometimes more than once, but in the end we complete, and a minute later the activator is working someone else at a good comfortable S5 again. It can be infuriating, but as I say, it is part of the game. If it was too easy would we want to do it?

If you get annoyed with what seems to be a deaf chaser, try and remember that you are QRP, he is running ten or more times the power that you are, your environment is noise free (which is part of the joy of activating!) but he has to deal with the guy next door running a power drill, so this “deaf” chaser is having to work harder to hear you than you are to hear him. The situation is inherently asymmetrical and you have the better position as well as a better view!

Yes, there are dumb chasers, just as there are dumb activators. I get really annoyed at the activators on phone that don’t give a clear indication of when to call, all I need is a QRZ, as skip means that I frequently cannot hear when the chaser finishes, those who can hear him can tail end, those who can’t are in limbo until they get guidance from the activator. Most activators are great operators, some are the pits!

2 Likes
28

“the activators on phone that don’t give a clear indication of when to call, all I need is a QRZ”

Totally agree. Activators need to realise they are in charge of the frequency and must supervise the contact sequence. Just assume that none of the chasers can hear the chasers you just worked. Obviously the rest of them need to know when to call. A pattern that is predictable and consistent is the best. End the contact, say 73 and thanks, then announce what is happening, are you opening up a new pileup or are you working through the list you made last time (you did make a list didn’t you?)

Andrew VK1DA/VK2UH

1 Like
29

List makers are few and far between. They are comfortable to work because you know that once you are listed you are virtually sure of a contact, but lists get disrupted by tail-enders who don’t realise that a list is being worked. For me the jury is still out on whether a list is a good idea.

30

I don’t like working a pileup through lists, neither as an activator nor a chaser.
I find it extremely boring.
As well as I dont like calling by numbers or calling by countries because I find it boring too.
One QSO after the other giving the same chances to everyone in the pile up at everytime is the best for all IMHO, either chasers or activators.
Cheers,

Guru

3 Likes
31

Almost never because:
A. I can’t make out the other callsigns
B. It’s sometimes difficult enough working the radio, noting the time and recording the contact in cold windy conditions.

3 Likes
33

I don’t really care too much about 2 x callers or tail enders, as long as its slick. After all its a pileup, if everyone calls at the same time its gets harder to pull out the calls.

But I really don’t like on frequency tuners, its really rude and inconsiderate. On CW its often quite easy to identify the culprit, when they call you after with the same strength and tone! I have 2 callsigns noted that I will probably email in time, or perhaps if I am in a grumpy mood give them an on air telling off! The bands are rarely so busy that there is no clear nearby frequency to tune up.

HNY to all
Gavin
GM0GAV

4 Likes
34

A lot has been said on this forum.

I can add but a couple of thoughts:
I am fairly convinced that the poor close-in IMD performance of some of our radios is the root cause of being unable to disseminate the pilup calls. I use an FT 857, its performance is poor. The KX3 I have experience it is much better, as are some of the other DSP radios. I may get an FT891 which is aso better
I listen to the pileup and grab what I can, be it the first or last caller. It is rare I come away empty handed.
If things are quiet I aim to work 1 QSO per minute. If the pileup is large, I cut down the detail and speed up the QSO, giving location every 3 calls.
Roy G4SSH has been mentioned, yes a great op. His CW technique included calling QRG ± 200Hz. Give it a try.
I suggest chasers should only call once, and no lists.

David G0EVV

2 Likes
35

Gee, I hadn’t considered this. Thanks for bringing it up. I have assiduously added my SOTA QSOs to my LOTW log. Not anymore, not without learning how to do what G8ADD has suggested.

73,
Andy, N4LAG

36

Do you mean logging in the database, if so do you need help?

37

Thanks for the LoTW reminder. I have not been updating that for a while. Unfortunately the TQSL application does not seem to support directly the SOTA reference as station location information (correct me if this is not true anymore), but you may find some other logging program that does unless you want to edit the ADIF-file manually. I was using a Perl script to make activation ADIF-file from SOTA database CSV log file. Need to test it to see if it still works.

73, Jaakko oh7bf/ac1bb

38

Agreed, Ed. I have stopped QSLing SOTA contacts via LOTW or eQSL because of the impracticability of creating dozens of subsidiary accounts for all the different /P locations activated. It is completely unnecessary anyway, as QSLs are not required to claim SOTA credits.

Also, there are a few European chasers who have sent me a paper QSL card for every single SOTA contact they have made with me … sometimes 20 or more paper cards. It’s crazy!

73,
Walt (G3NYY)

39

OK…My 2 cents worth…

This Grid Square Stuff is pretty important to VHF ops…at least it is here in the States.

I know that LOTW has nothing to do with SOTA, but making my SOTA log and SOTA QSL information correct motivated me to do so from day one of my SOTA career. I was proud to be out operating from so many different summits in different Grid Squares and different counties (OK…and from different states).

As an old VHF weak signal operator I have had to log all of my Amateur Radio VHF QSO’s since 1984 showing the proper Grid Square into LOTW. My QSO’s also show the proper county I was in at the time for the County Hunters. As a result all of my 54,000 QSO’s since 1965 all show the correct information in the LOTW and SOTA databases.

If you use LOTW it is not difficult to create a list of all of your SOTA Locations in LOTW. The SOTA database for each summit shows the Grid Square for every summit. I did have to create a few locations where the same Grid Square covers more than one county, so I have lots of locations in LOTW.

Anyhow, I figured that if I was going to do this Ham Radio, SOTA, LOTW, and QSL stuff properly I needed to get the contact information correct, if not for me, then for the others who worked me. Getting the contact information right might just be a big deal for some of them.

73,

Pete
WA7JTM
DM33xo
Maricopa County
Arizona

1 Like
40

I have better things to do with my time … like going out and activating more summits!

You are creating a nightmare for yourself, Pete.

73,
Walt (G3NYY)

41

Hi Walt,

I created the nightmare a long time ago when I decided to hand enter those 50,000+ contacts in my paper logs into LOTW.

Now it is easy peasy…and it takes me zero time to submit any log from anywhere correctly…and I like the fact that my info will be in LOTW long after I am gone (maybe…u never know).

For someone just starting out it is a simple thing to do… to get it right from the start.

73

Pete

1 Like