I could list a load of hills where there’s no PROW or Access Land that people access regularly without any issue. The two nearest to me are Mynydd y Cwm and Mynydd Rhyd Ddu.
To, for your own access to the second one you commented on your blog
“The first objective was the lesser-spotted GW/NW-073 - Mynydd Rhyd Ddu. I had fully intended to follow BVE’s described route, but Jimmy had been studying the map and wanted to “just check out” the line from the highest point in the road to the south. Surprisingly, there was a convenient parking spot right at this point, and the gate into the field was open. A fairly well trodden route ran from here to the summit, albeit with several fences and gates to be climbed. At the summit we were joined by several farm workers in tractors, JCBs and 4WDs. They had witnessed our approach to the summit and our radio gear, but did not come to talk to us. One of them did give us a wave goodbye as we made our way off the summit though!”
I’ve read the general rules and find no incompatibility with my view.
“All Expeditions must use legitimate access routes and comply with any local rules regarding use of the land. In particular, Activators must ensure that they have any necessary permission to operate from their chosen Summit, or that access is customary.”
“Here checking access rights means checking websites, maps, notices in the nearest village or tourist centre as well as onsite footpath notices. Activating a summit where permission has not been given or implied by ‘open access’ will invalidate the activation.”
If there’s a reasonable route onto a site that I can see others have followed and no one has had any issues then customary access is established for me, even if there are some old signs dating from when the site was being worked with heavy machinery. If it’s not fenced off then I treat it as “open access”. The access roads in Jimmy’s pictures are just that - access roads dating from when the tipping and subsequent landscaping work was being done. I certainly wouldn’t expect to access by motor vehicle. Also, what if you come from the other side where the current summit lies?
Anyway, Gerald OIG will tell us all soon. If he gets up there without challenge or problem then I will treat that as “customary”, if he has a problem then of course that is another matter.
Of course, there are ways of establishing a right of way:
"a) Under section 31 of the Highways Act 1980
To establish that a way has become a right of way by means of presumed dedication it is necessary to show firstly that there has been uninterrupted use by the public (not necessarily the same people all the time) over a period of 20 years in the belief that that use was as of right. Deciding who ‘the public’ are can sometimes be difficult and may depend on the facts of the case. But in general it should be people other than those working for the landowner concerned, and the belief that use was as of right excludes use which was known to be with the permission or licence of the landowner. The period of 20 years is counted back from the date on which the public’s right was first brought into question, for example through the erection of a fence or locking of a gate across the way, however long ago that date was. Evidence of use, or of interruptions of use, since that date is not relevant to the existence of the right of way at the date it was interrupted.
Of course, in this case it might be necessary to also prove that the summit has existed for twenty years!
Oh, I believe you - on both counts! I just wanted to make sure nobody took you up on your invitation and started a heated discussion - thus spoiling sport!
Jeez guys, if it wasn’t for a certain Benny Rothman and 400 others trespassing on G/SP-001, we wouldn’t enjoy the access we now have to the hills (albeit less than in GM). Let’s not get too precious about whether an operating position is 3 inches in or 3 inches out of an AZ.
I am glad someone else thinks that there is something a bit off about this thread. Not only are we reaping the fruits of the mass trespass but some of us grew to love the countryside in the days when maps had no mention of rights of way except in the OS disclaimer. If you found a path on the ground it was there to follow. I don’t remember ever being turned back in those days; only after all the PROWs appeared and farmers got stroppy if they found you going through the wrong gate.
Having spent my youth wandering around the BR loco sheds and sidings (collecting numbers instead of Marilyns) fishing on river banks sharing the fields and banks with grazing cattle, walking to the school playing field through other fields and straying through the overgrown gardens of ruined country houses I find the present attitude to trespass really pathetic.
No Tom, it’s not the end of the world at all. Whilst I always try to be on the true summit of a hill, sometimes for example storm force winds (like today) necesitate a lower operating position. Although the AZ is defined as 25m, I like to stick to 25 yards which keeps me 7% safe. Answer me this, how would you know you are within +/- 3 inches on G/SP-001 without that very expensive equipment the hallowed RHB people use? Let’s have some common sense applied. … within the rules of course.
Easy Steve. Common sense would have me activating from the vicinity of Kinder Low. That trig point is in the AZ, and known to be just 3m lower than the actual summit. That gives 22m to play with. 10m (vertically) is more than sufficient to get a quiet, out-of-the-way, sheltered operating position. Why on earth would you feel the need to be getting close to the AZ boundary on Kinder?
When were the river banks ever free to fish from? They have been owned for centuries, there was a time when you could be flogged and transported for poaching! This is not to say that I disapprove of trespass, I, too venerate the mass trespassers, but they paid a penalty for their actions, just as anyone caught breaking our rules will be penalised - and breaking our rules will not be for the idealistic dream of the trespassers but for sheer lazyness and the desire to collect undeserved credit for an unrealised achievement.
I think it the would be good if England and Wales had exactly the same law of trespass as Scotland as Scotland’s law of trespass just means you can only get done for trespass if you cause any damage meaning that you have the right to roam anywhere in Scotland if you don’t cause damage. Where as in England and Wales you can get done for trespass if you walk onto private land without permission which makes it difficult to activate some of the private land summits in England and Wales. This means that if England and Wales had the same law of trespass as Scotland, we would not need to worry about getting permission of getting done for trespass if we walk onto private land without permission just as so long as we didn’t cause damage.
Oh dear, it looks as though my spoon has lost its power. You are doing fine without me.
I will do the best I can later in the week to get as accurate a result as possible. I will take Martyn’s advice and use the new summit as the datum for the levels, even though this will mean walking out of the OA land. I have already spent some time setting up the OS information to hand on AutoCAD so I can take readings the OA edge and I will also attempt to take some points on the 340m level should it intersect the OA land. This will tell us how much land we have to park our backsides on.
As noted previously, I will be using a Garmin consumer standard GPS to take levels relative to the new summit. Since SOTA is our pastime and not our profession, I hope this will suffice. I do not intend to drag an assistant, staff and dumpy level up the hill. You can argue the toss on the validity of my findings after I report back.
That’s strange Tom, half my post has strangely disappeared Never mind, let’s remember this is only a hobby at the end of the day. Don’t forget the best maps commonly available in this country have 5m contours not 3ins.
