An Socach CS-038

In reply to G8ADD:

ALL languages are pronounced exactly as
spelled, once you know the rules

I’ve been trying to fathom what you might mean by that, since it seems to me to be self-evidently not true. For a start, not ALL languages have an alphabetic writing system at all, and hence may have no concept of “spelling”, but that is perhaps pedantry.

Most languages with an alphabet have spelling-to-sound and sound-to-spelling rules of varying degrees of complexity, but few are complete and unambiguous. English certainly isn’t. There are many English words whose pronunciation cannot be inferred from the spelling with any number of rules, simply because there is no way of knowing which of a pair of homographs you have. If you have to say the word “sow”, you cannot do that by rule; you have to know whether you are talking about a pig or putting seeds in the ground. Proper names are worse - you gave one example yourself but there are worse - for example I believe that there are at least four different accepted pronunciations of the English surname Featherstonehaugh. A rule, however complex, could only generate one.

The problem with Gaelic is that it has a rich repertoire of phonemes; something in the region of 50 distinct sounds. The mediaeval scribes who had to write it down on parchment for the first time had a real problem trying to represent it in their meagre Latin alphabet. Many of the apparently silent letters are actually giving cues to the finer points of the pronunciation of other letters nearby. In particular “h” is more of a diacritical mark than a separate letter, and many of the extra vowel letters are there to modify adjacent consonants. However some of them do represent dipthongs as an English speaker would expect, and I do have a lot of difficulty in determining which are of which kind!

The real problem with getting these names right is that many of the sounds simply don’t occur in English. This is why most pronunciation guides which respell the names in an English-like way are doomed to failure. But it is worse than that; even when we hear the names spoken by a native, we tend to subconsciously map what we hear onto the phonemic structure of our native language, so what comes out of the mouth is not what went into the ears. We just have to hope that we can manage well enough to avoid the most serious gaffes.

The site http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/roradh.htm is the best online treatment of Gaelic pronunciation I’ve seen. But it is rather detailed.

Also there are some very useful “native speaker” sound clips on http://www.munromagic.com/

But in some cases these merely add to the mystery of it all. GM/CS-040 and CM/CS-048 are both “Meall Buidhe”, and they’re not very far apart. But munromagic.com gives them very different pronunciations (and it sounds to me like the same speaker has recorded both clips). So yes, there are rules, but they’re not the whole story.

In reply to M1MAJ:

All true, Martyn, plus the complication that there are local accents in both Gaelic and Welsh!

Don’t puzzle too hard over that quote, it was intended as humour since it was self-evidently as untrue as the quote from the Gaelic speaker!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G8ADD:

ALL languages are pronounced exactly as spelled …

As in the English words tough, bough, cough, though, thought, etc.
:slight_smile:

(Off the cough - er, cuff, how do you pronounce “Coughton Hall”, a National Trust property in Warwickshire?)

73,
Walt (G3NYY)

In reply to G3NYY:
Or even Holker Hall…near Ulverston

73
David g6lkb

In reply to G6LKB:

… and I even lived in Lancaster for 2 years before I got corrected on my pronunciation of Quernmore. Our local peculiarity is Cogenhoe which you will be aware of David.

73, Gerald G4OIG

In reply to G6LKB:

Or even Holker Hall…near Ulverston

Or, for that matter, Peniel Heugh in the Scottish Borders.
:slight_smile:

This 46m (150 feet) high monument was constructed between 1817 and 1824 to commemorate the Battle of Waterloo (1815). It stands on the site of a fortified settlement and is one of the best known man-made features in the central Borders. The monument...

73,
Walt (G3NYY)

In reply to GM4TOE:
Oh gone on! Let’s start on Welsh. A phonetic alphabet of its own. If I don’t know the word or placename I sound out the Welsh letters and then say it quicker. Always works for me. I know from learning when w and y are in either vowel or consonant sounds. A primary school education in Bala is what you’re lacking ! HI. If you can say the Welsh alphabet you can pronounce the language as written. German is similarly phonetic thankfully. English is a muddle caused by successive invaders adding bits. I’m at a loss how to pronounce Greenhalgh still.

I’m hoping for an Englyn or a Penill from e.g. G0PEB or 2W0CYM for a bit of culture here!

Hwyl fawr

David

In reply to M0YDH:

If you can say the Welsh alphabet you can pronounce the language as written.

I would dispute that, Dafydd. For example, the names Ieuan and Teifryn are pronounced differently dependent upon which part of Wales you come from.

And how do you know which pronunciation of the letter ‘y’ applies in any particular word? For example, “Ysbyty Gwynedd”, or “Aberystwyth” or “Ynystawe”. Clue: the pronunciation of the ‘y’ depends on whether or not it is in the last syllable … but not always!

Hwyl, hwyl!

Walt (G3NYY)

In reply to M0YDH:

If you can say the Welsh alphabet you can pronounce the language as written.

I would agree with this statement. Each letter in the Welsh alphabet has only one sound and no silent letters.

I still struggle with spelling English words out loud due to most phonetical sounds and the spelling of words being totally at odds. I end up having to spell English words using the Welsh alphabet, much simpler. That’s what primary school education from Llanuwchllyn does to you hi … (One English language lesson every 2 weeks … ) … :slight_smile:

Looking forward to activating a few summits towards the end of the month in Snowdonia.

73’s

Robert
G0PEB
Isle of Wight

In reply to G0PEB:

In my younger days I was into amateur dramatics and did a speech training course, there I was taught that in English each vowel had five separate sounds. I believed then and still believe that this is intolerably inefficient and each sound should have a separate symbol, C should be eliminated as everything it does can be done by K and S, soft G is redundant as its job can be done by J…and so on. It will never happen, of course - and 6 is opening to the east so I’m off!

73

Brian G8ADD

In reply to G0PEB:

Sut mae Robat? Oes penill bach neu englyn arall gennych chi os gwelwch chi’n dda?

I can understand you’re approach to pronouncing English. When faced with pronouncing Danish, I found that the Welsh alphabet was the key! Danish has rolled r and rh sounds, an dd in e.g gade [street] plus vowels not unlike a e i o u w y. And north Wales Welsh dialect is as throaty as Jysk Danish! The test phrase rød grød med fløde with which Danes love to test visitors I found re-spelled nicely to rhyrdd gryrdd medd flyrdde in my head.

Walt needs help with ‘wy’. To pronounce wy [which is egg] the nearest I can offer with English sounds is oo-i or oo-ee. A-ber- yst - wyth.

The silly season is rather good fun!

Hwyl

David / Dei

In reply to G8ADD:

" - and 6 is opening to the east so I’m off! "
Is it just me or is 70MHz full of Russian sounding broadcast stations using WFM?

I can pick them up on several radios with different IF’s, including on the Wouxon KG699E on it’s rubber duck so it can’t be intermod.

I’ve stuck my 4m dipole up at 45ft in any case :wink:

6m & 10m are both wide open too :slight_smile:

Best 73,

Mark G0VOF