Other SOTA sites: SOTAwatch | SOTA Home | Database | Video | Photos | Shop | Mapping | FAQs | Facebook | Contact SOTA

Would it be seen as Cheating if


#1

Would it be seen as cheating if a Foundation licence holder who’s licence conditions allow him to run 10W KNOWINGLY runs 25W in order to chase summits and claim points? He is in a good elevated position over 600’ ASL and is on the Chaser database. Although I don’t wish to name and shame him at this point surely this is not only bad practice but against the rules of sota?

I see it like a golfer who cheats by putting down false scores in order to make himself seem superior yet only makes himself look a fool. As I know who he is is I will be ignoring him should he call me when I’m out activating.

I have spoken with him face to face about this without success.

73 Chris 2E0FSR


#2

In reply to 2E0FSR:
If he’s breaching the terms of his license, I should think there is a possibility of having his license revoked…

73
Graham G4FUJ


#3

In reply to G4FUJ:

In reply to 2E0FSR:
If he’s breaching the terms of his license, I should think there is a
possibility of having his license revoked…

73
Graham G4FUJ

I’d go further - if he’s breaching the terms of his license then it is illegal for us to work him if we know this.

73

Brian G8ADD


#4

In reply to 2E0FSR:

Having given my take on the legal situation above, I now address your post, Chris.

Speaking as Moderator, I would not permit you to “name and shame” anybody on this reflector. It would amount to an unsupported and probably unprovable accusation, such an accusation might even be actionable. Furthermore, even if the accusation could be proved there is no way that SOTA could enforce any action. This is a matter for Ofcom, not SOTA. I am also not too happy about the way you have worded your post - in effect you have now directed suspicion on ALL Foundation licensees. An activator called by an M3 or M6 will now be thinking “Is this the one?” which is hardly fair on the innocent majority, is it?

So, a general rule for all contributors: no personal accusations - if you think you have evidence of malpractise, communicate with the MT.

73

Brian G8ADD


#5

In reply to 2E0FSR:

Would it be seen as cheating if a Foundation licence holder who’s
licence conditions allow him to run 10W KNOWINGLY runs 25W

If he knows that his feeder losses are sufficient to ensure that no more than 10W is delivered to the antenna feed point, he would not be breaching his licence conditions. 4dB of cable loss is all it needs. Have you measured the power actually being fed to the antenna?


#6

In reply to M1MAJ:

Which you would get from about 25m of ‘no name’ RG58. (not allowing for connectors)

Dick


#7

In reply to M0EIQ:

This is true, assuming that the activations in question are
144MHz or above. At HF the losses would be much less.

Kind regards

Dave


#8

In reply to G0ELJ:

At HF the losses would be much less.

Assuming a low swr at the antenna. Something like a G5RV with a tuner at the TX would give considerable losses in the coax on some bands.

Nothing is simple, is it?:wink:

73

Brian G8ADD


#9

Having worked several stations, both as chaser and activator, I do not need more than 10W to make contacts. A good antenna will help you on the way nicely.

This person is only cheating on himself

And this is indeed a job for Ofcom

One should work within the limits of ones license.

Peter


#10

In reply to Brian,

Firstly, I am a well respected member of the amateur radio community in this area. Anyone who knows me or has heard me operate knows that I am more than happy to work foundation licence holders or qrp stations when I hear them call.

Wether foundation, intermediate or full licence its all letters and numbers and everyone knows that there are good/bad operators out there regardless of prefix.

The said operator is using a Kenwood TM-701 on the high power setting to an antenna with less than 20’ of Mini-8 coax so the losses are not great.

I have spoken to him face to face as have other operators regarding him running 25W yet he cares not a jot. He asked to borrow my Avair SWR/Power meter and this confirmed 25W from the radio.

73 Chris 2E0FSR


#11

In reply to 2E0FSR:

Chris, you will have noticed that I have deleted part of your post. As it happened you were addressing your remarks to me, but I would have deleted them if they had been addressed to any other person. They were unacceptable on this reflector, and I must draw your attention to the rules printed below the reply box.

You have clearly taken offence and over reacted. I must inform you that I acted entirely within my remit as Moderator in the post in question, and request that you do not repeat your remarks.

73

Brian G8ADD, Moderator.


#12

In reply to 2E0FSR:

It’s illegal. Which I think also makes it invalid for SOTA.

I see it more like a golfer who brings along clubs that aren’t allowed by the rules. Fake logging (eg making up a fourth contact) would be our ‘putting down false scores’.

The point about feeder power losses is a good one, but they’re low on HF. Also, “I thought the power would be lost in the co-ax” isn’t going to cut any ice with Ofcom.

Personally, as an activator, I’d be *&(@$%£ annoyed if an activation I’d done got invalidated because the chaser was breaching the license. There’ve been a few where I only got the minimum four, so losing one would cost me the points. I’m not sure if the SOTA rules do work like that though, anyone know?


#13

I think that if, as an activator, you have worked a calling station in good faith, then that should not be taken away from you if subsequent issues come to light.

BTW, I think that anyone with concerns or even proof that a fellow amateur is breaching his/her licensing conditions, then they should raise the matter with Ofcom, rather than SOTA. SOTA operates on the “honour system” anyway.

Tom M1EYP


#14

In reply to M1EYP:

I would tend to agree. The contact is still a contact, so it wouldn’t be the activator’s fault if the contact was later found to have been in breach of license conditions. It’s the operator’s responsibility to make sure their station complies with the regulations, not the person they’re talking too.

With regards to an activation with only four contacts being disqualified because of one of the contacts being invalid, I find that in recent times it’s difficult to get away with working only four chasers anyway! Even midweek, I often had to rush through QSOs ‘rubber stamp’ style because there has been many callers. If more than four chasers are worked, then you’re well and truly covered anyway.

73, Colin


#15

In reply to M0CGH: If the contact was a pirate then it surely would not count, and if the operator is breaching their license conditions it is surely just as illegal (if harder to prove.)

In WOTA we are considering abandoning the 4 contact rule, as the way it is being circumvented (by chasers who will work an activator using multiple calls, club calls etc.) makes it a pointless requirement anyway. I guess how easy it is to make 4 contacts depends on where you are and what equipment you are using. 2m won’t get you very far from a lower Wainwright on simplex.


#16

In reply to G4ILO:
Julian, have you looked at it the other way around? Suppose a person has more than one callsign and want to chase with all his callsigns? In other words, it isn’t him doing the activator a favour, but the other way around.

There is a difficulty here in that we do not know what power a station is using at any time. Yes, Chris has evidence that on a certain occasion a station was using illegal power, but power is adjustable and we don’t know that every contact is made with it cranked up - we may suspect but we don’t actually know. And what if we consider it probable? How should we act? The database does not currently have a facility for rejecting certain callsigns, nor can we ask all activators not to work certain callsigns - well, we could, but who is going to remember an odd callsign in the middle of a pileup?

No, the only sure solution is action by Ofcom, and they will require evidence before they begin to investigate. Its not like the good old days when that nice guy from the GPO would knock your door, check your log and inspect your station, we have King Log, not King Stork now!

73

Brian G8ADD


#17

For any operator to ignore another would be wrong, childish even.

What narks me is that the station in question has been a friend of mine for many years, back to the days of cb radio when I was barely a teenager.

I will not name anyone as I said earlier but the station has less than 50 chaser points and I gave him 23 of those with him user power levels higher than his licence conditions permit.

The bottom line is that if he is happy doing what he is doing then so be it.

73 Chris 2E0FSR


#18

In reply to 2E0FSR:

For any operator to ignore another would be wrong, childish even.

“As I know who he is is I will be ignoring him should he call me”

Hi Chris

Both the above quotes are from your posts in this thread :wink:

73

Richard
G3CWI


#19

In reply to G3CWI:

I will not answer should he call me. Well spotted though.

73 Chris 2E0FSR


#20

In reply to 2E0FSR:

The bottom line is that if he is happy doing what he is doing then so
be it.

I presume you have tried the positive approach of encouraging him to upgrade his licence…