Why don't VKs/ZLs use CW more?

I thought there was a separate thread on the VK-NA S2S - it seems not, the comments must be within a different thread. If I remember correctly, there was little enthusiasm to go out during the (northern hemisphere) Winter season and Spring was going to be more likely.

Ed.

Pete,

I am planning to be at Mt Ginini vk1/ac-008 next weekend 14/15 Jan. I will be there for a VHF field day contest and the post dawn period when conditions might be good for a contact are competing with my searches for vhf and uhf beacons, posting wake-up calls to operators in other places and similar such activities. However knowing the interest in making s2s or even chaser contacts to VK, I will aim to be actively listening and calling on whatever band seems to have activity. If all goes to plan I will be able to listen and call during the period 1900-2100 UTC on both 13 Jan UTC and 14Jan UTC. 6am to 8am local time. Rig will be an IC703 with 250 hz cw filter available.

I will also aim to operate in the european Long path period approaching our sunset at 2000 local time or 0900 UTC. And whatever happens in between. JAs on 15m etc.

I operate my VHF station from a Honda generator but of course I use batteries to power my SOTA gear. 10w output power will be the default for any dx attempts. I operate from a tent for the vhf event.

According to W1JT’s simulator the lowest level I can copy is about -8 db s/n. Although listening to JT65 signals that are at about -15 db I reckon I could copy them if they were cw. The difference is the bandwidth used to measure the noise, I think. The ear /brain combination can effectively ignore unwanted frequencies and produce an effective bandwidth for noise purposes much less than the actual incoming signal… (that should trigger a reaction of some sort).

I would think that a good indicator of propagation would be WSPR logs between VK1/2/3/4/7 (for example) and the west coast of the US. Some WSPR stations run power up to 5 watts (a minority run more and with the new sotabeams device there are a few running 200 mw).

Let me know if you are likely to attempt S2S on either of those dates, the times and bands etc. Let Sol know too so we have some prop. :slight_smile:

73

Andrew VK1DA/VK2UH

Actually, CW is easier. Radio is smaller, cheaper, lighter, no microphone, RBN can automatically spot you, a smaller, lighter battery can be used, and lower output power can be used effectively, My entire set-up including radio, battery, antenna, 20 foot pole, weighs under one pound and sets up in three or four mintes, and has been used for five hundred activations. Have fun, - fred KT5X (aka WS0TA)

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This here is why these threads are silly. CW isn’t easier if you don’t know how to do CW. SSB is far easier, being a natural language. Set up time is no different between the two, pack weight is an activator’s preference, and as for the RBN, there’s one, maybe two skimmers in all of VK that pick up activators, and not with any regularity (three if you include ZL2HAM). A quick check of RBNHole stats suggests 15% of VK activations get spotted via RBNHole. I wrote the bloody software, and it’s spotted me something like twice in the year!

The activator is king, they get to choose what bands, mode, how much they hump in, etc. We all know the advantages CW has over SSB, we all know that it’s not just mode, but propagation and timing (as Andrew 1DA points out).

Incidentally, I’ve worked NA SSB from a summit. I’ve tried on CW and never made a contact. Anecdotal evidence 1, science 0. :slight_smile:

This thread, like all the others before it, will follow a predictable pattern. First, chaser complains no CW. Second, VK folks respond with reasons, and saying that people are trying to create more CW activations. Three, degeneration into discussion of advantages of CW over SSB. Four, a long drawn out argument over whether it’s easy to learn CW, usually with few VK participants.

Meanwhile, those SSB-only activators have already muted or ignored the thread around point 2, and the activators that do include CW are being preached at despite being part of the choir. They continue to use CW, often on higher bands, and get no NA chasers anyway, because, of course, it’s never that simple.

In the end, it really doesn’t matter if CW is “easier” or “better” or “more effective”. Those who like CW will do CW, those who like SSB will do SSB, because that is what we are doing - what we like. No amount of complaining or preaching can possibly change that.

So really the answer to the question in the thread title is: because relatively speaking, there aren’t very many of us who do CW.

However, the number is increasing, defying all the doomsayers. I congratulate the VKs who have revived their dormant CW skills or even learnt it from scratch to operate effectively on CW for SOTA. Just the incentive needed.

Andrew VK1DA/2UH

Well…if you want to increase your chances of making long distance s2s contacts on SOTA (like W to VK) you should consider useing CW.

Digital modes are superior to SSB for weak signal work, like we are currently experiencing in this solar cycle, as any VHF or EME operator knows. All else being equal, CW can get thru when SSB can’t be heard.

Now that doesn’t mean you cant work W to VK on SSB…but you will likely need more power, better propagation, more antenna gain, and more luck than running CW. Additionally the QRM factor for CW is improved over SSB due to it’s narrow bandwidth, and the receiver filtering for CW. A 500 KHz CW filter eliminates a lot of QRM from a crowded band.

RBNhole is another factor…the automatic CW spotting will let others know where to find stations, so no searching the bands is required.

Anyhow, looking forward to working VK from some summits this spring from Arizona regardless of the mode. I am an equal opportunity DXer…any mode any band! Let’s just say I’m easy…

73

Pete
WA7JTM
Arizona

Hi Pete, checked my log and I have 62 contacts to the US from SOTA summits:
40m - 1
20m - 20
12m - 35
10m - 6

4 of these contacts were with you (2 on 20m and 2 on 12m) - obviously the largest number of contacts into the US being on 12m (with a non optimal antenna at that) is a distortion caused by the 12m challenge! But it does show that SSB contacts are able to be made VK to NA from a summit. S2S contacts VK to NA are harder (only one known instance of this from late last year) due to the times that we have in common for activating compared to propagation.

I usually activate at higher power levels than most (normally 80-100 watts), so that makes it easier - and usually also try to have a reasonable antenna setup. When a VK - NA S2S event occurs, I intend to be running about 250W to a reasonable antenna so that should improve my chances. Hopefully I can find some like minded NA activators with a similar capability!

Digital modes are a possibility when I eventually sort ut a portable setup (at lower power levels of course). As I don’t have much interest in CW, I am quite unlikely to activate with it. So that means you have a chance of working me on SSB or maybe digital modes, but minimal chance of working me on CW.

Matt
VK1MA

When activating I aim to qualify on CW and this can usually be achieved on 40m as most VK chasers are within range on that band. There is not such a big incentive to explore many different bands. The thought there might be JA stations looking to work VKs on CW is rather novel. On the other hand I always chase JA activators when on a summit - with varying levels of success.
Seems like I should change my operating practice to include reorienting my antenna to favour JA and calling on 17m and 15m. Maybe other VKs should try this too.
73, Gerard - VK2IO

Gerard, there are a half-dozen JA super-activators who mostly operate (slow) CW, usually starting between 2300 and 0200Z. They usually start out on 20 and then hit 17 and 15, sometimes 30 also. Some go down to 40 SSB when the higher bands close down. I try to work as many as I can, so I know they always work the same stalwart VKs and ZL1BYZ. When their signals are strong here in Okinawa they are usually weak down under, and vice versa.
Steve

Steve, I do chase the JA activators and am able to work the stronger ones using my wire antennas. Have many more chaser JA contacts than S2S. Most successful band for me is 17m.
I wonder how many JA super-chasers there are likely to be?
Gerard - VK2IO

Matt,

The biggest problem I have with SSB (other than the weaker signals of ssb vs cw) is the fact that I have no way to spot myself when out on a summit on SSB. On CW I get automatically spotted and stations can listen for me. I can run about 40 watts from any summit if needed, so I have a little extra power for SSB contacts.

I have worked Australia summits 39 times (mostly from home), and I have worked VK Chasers from a summit twice. I had a near miss a few years ago on an s2s on cw (VK5CZ). I do have one VK s2s contact…but I was in Hawaii at the time.

My VK QSO by band: 20M (19), 15M (5), 12M (4), 10M (11)…times for all contacts are after 2200 UTC…so best on my approaching greyline late in our day.

I hope the VK to NA s2s idea takes off…I think that may be the best chance for a few VK/W s2s contacts in March or early April.

Pete
WA7JTM

I am surprised to see Andrew VK1DA hasn’t received feedback on his post. Here we have a VK seeking potential interest in a ‘CW’ S2S with NA this coming Friday and Saturday.

If not a S2S, I would assume a handful of CW NA chasers would be keen to work Andrew on an 8 point summit, Mt Ginini?

73 Andrew VK1AD (one of the Andrews)

You need to wait till more US stations are awake!

(Only my mother called me Andrew!)

I’m off to play Aircraft Enhancement from Tuggeranong Hill VK1/AC-038. Anyone interested in AE?

I was only ever called ‘Andy’ by my first serious girlfriend. Nevermind :slight_smile:

73 Andrew VK1AD

I did a little database noodling to put some numbers to the conjectures, looking only at JA (Honshu) and 2016 because SOTA has become much more popular here recently. (Other JA* regions total only 8 chasers.)
There were 55 chasers, and 18 of them had more than 200 chaser points. As to the modes and bands used by chasers, the points break down like this (for all chasers):
Band CW SSB
7 23 16
14 16 6
18 20 8
21 24 10
24 7 0
28 8 4

So there are quite a few SSB chasers but many more on CW. I was surprised by the large number of chasers on 7 MHz because their QSOs are almost on mainland Japan.
There are RBN spots but recently, activators heard in VK/ZL are regularly spotted on SOTAwatch by chasers. So if you want to work us, keep looking for spots, especially on weekends.
72
Steve

Hi Pete, yes SSB makes it harder than CW, but as far as spotting goes, I can usually self spot for most summits and those that I cannot, usually I am lucky enough to have a chaser spot me either from announcing where I am QSYing to from the previous band or courtesy of a request via a local repeater.

As per the posting from Andrew VK1AD, Andrew VK1DA will be on Mt Ginini (VK1/AC-008) this weekend for a VHF/UHF contest but will have a modest HF setup, so if the conditions improve, there is the potential for a S2S if anyone is willing to get out in the cold and give it a go. Opposite problem here - but looks like it will be cooling down into the low 30’s here (that is celcius) over the weekend which will be a welcome relief.

Matt
VK1MA

Matt,

Looks like rain here Friday/Saturday. I might be able to activate a summit Sunday, but I will miss the window for working Andrew s2s…I will look for him from the home QTH however.

Pete
WA7JTM

Hi Steve,

I have asked myself that question many times over. I am not a big activator and have only activated 4 summits, but all have been CW only and any future activation’s will be CW only.
I regularly try and work all the JA CW activators and they are all great operators. They also spend a lot more time on a summit than the VK ops.
Blink and you can miss a lot of the VK activations.
I am 99% CW operator and the only time I do work SSB is for SOTA and WWFF activations.
There are times when I have not been able to work some VK ops on SSB but when they QSY to CW on the same band I can work them.
Each to their own I suppose.
Good luck and I hope to cu on the bands in CW again soon.
73 de Steve VK7CW

Steve, I took on board your request. On Sun/Mon I activated 8 summits and in most of those oriented my antenna to favour JA. Spots were posted calling for JA stations. With all that activity I only logged one JA station, JS1IFK on 15m CW. Mot JP1QEC did activate on 17m but I did not hear him, nor did ZL1BYZ or VK4RF. Seems that propagation JA to VK was poor even though on both days I worked NA. Hopefully it will be better next time. Please ask JA chasers to look for VK activators.

Cheers,
Gerard - VK2IO