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Third Party SOTA points


#1

A couple friends and I are planning a SOTA expedition in mid March. One is a general class ham and the other is currently working on his technician license. I’m going to try to get him to upgrade to at least general by then but he may not be able to do it.

So here’s my question: If we are using HF outside his operating privileges , and he is using my callsign as a third party operator (I would be next to him supervising as the control operator), would he be able to earn the SOTA points for the contacts he makes?


VK SOTA to Europe Saturday 7 March
#2

In reply to W5SMD:

So here’s my question: If we are using HF outside his operating
privileges , and he is using my callsign as a third party operator (I
would be next to him supervising as the control operator), would he be
able to earn the SOTA points for the contacts he makes?

As I understand it, yes. If your friend has registered his callsign with the SOTA database, when he logs into the database to enter the activation, it will ask him the following… Association, Region, Summit and finally Callsign used. He would enter your callsign into the callsign used box. If you will be supervisng him the entire activation, it would be far less complicted if he were to log the entire activation under your callsign and not just the HF part.

The points will be credited to his callsign.

I use a couple of callsigns and it works for me.

Someone will be along to confirm this or shoot me down in flames :wink:

73 Mike
2E0YYY


#3

In reply to 2E0YYY:

Sorry Mike, you are wrong. In order to claim credit to your own activator record, you must be operating under your own supervision, ie using a callsign that your licence allows you to use under your own authority.

Examples:
2E0YYY may use the callsign M6MMM/P which he also holds
M1EYP may use the club callsign GX4MWS/P (if he books it out with the club)
M3EYP may not use M1EYP/P on a joint activation. Well, not for credit towards his activator score anyway. He could, of course, operate the station and sign as M1EYP/P under my supervision, but that is my station and the QSOs would be logged under my account.

Tom M1EYP


#4

In reply to M1EYP:

In reply to 2E0YYY:

Sorry Mike, you are wrong. In order to claim credit to your own
activator record, you must be operating under your own supervision, ie
using a callsign that your licence allows you to use under your own
authority.

Duly shot down in flames :wink:

73 Mike
2E0YYY


#5

In reply to 2E0YYY:

To enlarge a little on what Tom said, it is covered by rule 3.7.1.1, though I think perhaps the wording could be tweaked a little!

73

Brian G8ADD


#6

And 3.7.1.11 as well - but as you say, a bit more “flesh on the bones” might be useful.

Tom M1EYP


#7

In reply to M1EYP:
“11. Activator points accrue to the operator regardless of the callsign used. The operator must be entitled to use the callsign. Multiple operators of the same station may claim activator points. Each individual operator must make the minimum number of QSOs stated above in order to claim Activator points.”

Based on that rule, I’d say M3EYP could use M1EYP/P on a joint activation. I mean, isn’t M3EYP entitled to use the other callsign, if you let him do so?

If there’s something in the rules preventing second operators from making SOTA-activations and get points for themselves, I think the rules should be amended as soon as possible. After all, a possible future radio amateur might be very interested in trying out something like SOTA together with a licenced ham before taking the exams. Allowing that would definitely be good for SOTA and the hobby in general.

73,
Jaakko, OH6FQI


#8

Nothing wrong with them trying it out in the context of being supervised to pass greetings messages - but the person who can submit the logs and claim the points is the supervisor, who holds the licence class to do that and operate with the working conditions being used.

If people enjoy what they are doing and want to do it for points - then hopefully they will be inspired to get a licence - or upgrade their licence class in order to do so.

SOTA has a SWL section in which unlicensed individuals can participate. There is plenty of opportunity - and spectrum - available for those without full licences to participate. If they want more, let them acquire the appropriate level of transmitting licence.

Tom M1EYP


#9

In reply to M1EYP:

Is it stated somewhere in the rules that second operators cannot get activation points?

73,
Jaakko, OH6FQI


#10

In reply to OH6FQI:

Jaako, the point is not whether second operators can get activation points, it is whether second operators can get operator points operating under conditions not permitted by their personal licenses, e.g at higher power levels (UK) or on bands/in band segments not appropriate to their licenses (USA). This is not as simple as it sounds and the MT are discussing the point in another place.

73

Brian G8ADD


#11

In reply to G8ADD:

Sorry I seem to have missed something here. The part of the rules quoted do NOT say that the person operating has to be licensed in their own right to use the mode, frequency, power or callsign (only that they are entitled to do so).

Stewart G0LGS


#12

In reply to G0LGS:

The point is that you cannot enter an activation into the database if you don’t have a callsign, Stewart, and if you don’t have access to the database then you are not actually taking part in SOTA even if you use somebodies transmitter under supervision and work chasers. Tom’s point is that if you hold a Foundation License and operate as a second operator using a power level or band not permitted to a FL, your contact cannot be put into the database under your own callsign because you are not operating under your permitted conditions, it has to be recorded as a contact of the higher level license.

73

Brian G8ADD


#13

In reply to G8ADD:

Unless I’m misreading the initial post - all those involved have (or hopefully will have) a callsign of their own on the date of activation, they may NOT however have one that permits operation on a given band without supervision.

As Mike 2E0YYY has already said when you submit the entry you are asked to enter the callsign used for the activation, clearly that could be anything and will in such a case be that of the person authorised to use that band/mode/power.

Unless I read my 5MHz NoV wrongly I could (but have not) allow Matt M3WDS to use my callsign on 5MHz without breaking any licensing rules during an activation - I see no issue with that under the current SOTA rules.

If you want to change the rules, then by all means do so, but do not expect anyone to accept such a change retrospectively.

Stewart G0LGS


#14

In reply to M1EYP:

Sorry Mike, you are wrong. In order to claim credit to your own
activator record, you must be operating under your own supervision, ie
using a callsign that your licence allows you to use under your own
authority.

That is NOT what the Current rules say !

It may be what you or the MT believe what it was meant to say, but changing the rules to reflect the ‘new’ interpretation of the meaning is clearly unfair to anyone that may have operated under supervision under the rules as they are currently written.

Stewart G0LGS


#15

I guess it depends on the interpretation of the word “entitled” in those GR. I am pretty sure that as a participant since 2002 and MT for a few years now, I know what the intended interpretation is. But maybe John G3WGV, President and Founder should be the one to clarify.

And then, yes, MT needs to address the issue of removing any possible ambiguity in the rule wording, so it is good that it had been raised - thank you. As far as any previous incidences of interpreting the rule so as to allow QSOs with someone else’s station, who has a higher licence class to your own, well I would simply say that wasn’t the spirit nor the intention of the rule, even if the wording wasn’t watertight.

This has arisen before, albeit very rarely, with (for instance) Foundation stations operating in EU associations, or unlicensed persons exchanging greetings messages. In each case of which I am aware, those concerned have contacted the MT directly with the query, and were given a definitive answer by reply. So hopefully there won’t be any skeletons in the closet, although I do acknowledge your point about retrospectivity.

73 es GN,

Tom M1EYP


#16

Indeed, clarification on this matter would be most welcome. So far I have been in the impression that the point of the above mentioned paragraph in the rules was to allow anyone to participate in SOTA regardless of their licensing and callsign status, as long as no laws or other official rules are broken. Also in the database most of us use our callsign as the username, but I remember seeing it written somewhere that this is not mandatory. After all, when entering activation contacts, one must always enter the callsign used on each particular QSO.

Brian, G8ADD mentioned that allowing such second operator activity is not as simple as it sounds. What is the actual complication here? Has it something to do with the laws regarding second operator activity differing between countries?

I must say I’m not that familiar with the situation in other countries, but in Finland, anyone without a licence can legally operate an amateur transmitter, as long as a licenced ham is supervising. Also a ham with a basic licence can operate with higher power, using a general class callsign, if a ham with a general licence is supervising. In fact, such second operator activity is quite strongly encouraged by the Finnish amateur radio league. For example, the national contests have separate classes for second operators.

73,
Jaakko, OH6FQI


#17

I sent a message to the MT, and they sent me an e-mail saying that they were going to discuss the details and get back to me. I’ll post the answer here when it comes.

Thanks for the replies.


#18

Hi,

What is the situation with this matter?

A week from now, I’m planning to activate a summit in the north with Antti, OH6FME. Antti is currently doing his military service in Kajaani, and the plan is to activate a summit or two in the area.

In Finland, the military units that train signalmen, have traditionally had a military radio amateur club. These clubs have callsigns with a special OI-prefix. Only few of these clubs are active nowadays, so it’s quite rare to hear an OI-call on the air.

Antti is serving as a HF-NCO in the same unit where I served some years ago, and this unit also has a club call OI8AY. This call has not been used at all for quite some time. We have agreed with the officer in charge to activate this station once more on a SOTA-activation.

Now the question is, if we both operate with this special call, is it a qualified activation for both of us, or should we still make at least 4 QSOs with our personal callsigns to get the activation points?

73,
Jaakko, OH6FQI


#19

In reply to OH6FQI:

Hi Jaakko

I cannot see any problem with this planned activation. You are both fully-licensed operators using a special callsign.

Each of you needs to make at least four QSOs in the usual way to gain individual credit, but your four QSOs can be with the same stations as Antti’s.

You then enter the activation into the database in two separate parts, your QSOs into your OH6FQI account and Antti’s QSOs into his OH6FME account, but listing OI8AY/P as the callsign used in both cases. As far as the database is concerned, this will be two separate activations, but the points will be allocated correctly.

Good luck, and I hope to work that rare OI8 prefix.

73 de Les, G3VQO


#20

In reply to G3VQO:

OK, thanks for the info.

The target summit will be Porttivaara, OH/JS-005 or Losonvaara, OH/JS-002. It depends on the weather and the condition of the ski tracks, as Porttivaara is best accessed with cross-country skis. But we’ll place alerts once we know.

73,
Jaakko, OH6FQI