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Seasonal Bonus


#61

In reply to MM0FMF:

In reply to GW7AAV:

I have been listening to Muse

What’s the new (last) album like?

I think it is (to steal a phrase from the yoof of today) awesome and there is not many bands around today that fall in to that category.

Roll on Spring! I have had enough of snow.

Steve


#62

In reply to MM0FMF:

My very first laptop had a non-English keyboard. I had only had it a week and I went to the Llandudno Radio Rally and someone was selling new English keyboards for a fiver to fit my laptop. It was an Amstrad with a green screen and took twelve C cell ni-cads and weighed a ton.

Steve


#63

In reply to GW7AAV:
It is ‘ah not snowing in Leeds’.
Blacksticks Blue is my favourite cheese.
Back on topic, no changes to winter bonus please…But I really would like P100 as I’m becoming less and less capable of p150’s.

Roger G4OWG


#64

In reply to GW7AAV:
My first laptop had a Spanish keyboard and it was an Amstrad and I bought it at a rally somewhere from a Welsh guy. Oh and I do like Blue Stilton.
David


#65

In reply to G6LKB:

it was at the Blackpool rally, we had a stand opposite his. it was in the pre-rock era.


#66

In reply to DK1ROB:

Rob, it may surprise you to know that the members of the MT, on their own and in conjunction with the various AMs, have exchanged many, many hundreds of emails discussing just the points you raise about scoring points for the summits in the higher ranges, going into such possibilities as extending the range of points beyond ten, logarithmic progressions for altitude, etc. A complex formula was discussed by the AMs but this foundered because it was too complex and had an enormous bias against the lower summits. We are well aware of the short season, the objective dangers, but also we have to try and factor in how you deal with the summits accessible by artificial means, ski lifts, and so on. As you know, a summit in the Alps might be say 4,000 metres high, but you do not ascend anything like 4,000 metres when you climb it. This matter has not been treated lightly, but no universal solution has been found. At present we hold to the traditional six bands, 10 points maximum (plus bonus) not because we are satisfied with it but because every suggested improvement has failed in some way. For now we just accept that you cannot directly compare Associations, and if you can’t score in the Alps out of season you at least have the foothills to go to. Personally I have not given up hope that some not too complex scoring system might be thought up by some genius, which will gain enough approval to be adopted universally, but we are not there yet. Why not try to come up with a system yourself? One that will reward the big Alpine ascents but not over-reward the cable car ascents or the shorter F or PD ascents from a high hut (which may well serve more than one summit) and equally important if applied to slag-heaps like Skiddaw will not reduce it to a derisory score.

Take your point about high temperatures in the Dollies, and the need to carry a lot of water. As it happens the Dollies are not in any SOTA Association, yet, but the MT has already accepted that there might be a need for summer bonuses in some places: things have gone quiet over the interest expressed from Australia, but we know that some areas have snow on the summits in winter and other areas with desert climates would rate a summer bonus instead. If a case is made out for a summer bonus the MT will consider it on its merits, there are no pre-conceived notions in the way of a just solution.

73

Brian G8ADD


#67

Like this thread, it is called a “seasonal bonus”, not a “winter bonus” - although for most places it is indeed the latter!

The W6 association is an existing example where the seasonal bonus parameters and rationale differ (necessarily) between each region.

Tom M1EYP


#68

In reply to DK1ROB:

While I have certain sympathies with what you have to say, more people would be inclined to pick up their jumpers and go home if you move the goal posts than will do so if you leave them where they are.

There are very few 10 pointers in the UK were you can drive to just outside the activation zone or ride up on a chair lift, but there are some in Northern Scotland were it will take you over a day to walk to the mountains base. We don’t have peaks where you can ski very quickly from one to the next and pick up 70 points plus bonus in a day either.

The fairness or otherwise is a matter of perspective, if you think we have it easier in the UK then get over here and activate some UK summits. Everyone can activate any hill in the scheme so it is effectively open to all. You will say but I would have to travel, but some of us live near lots of hills and some of us live hundreds of miles from the hills so even in the UK it can never be fair to all.

SOTA is not an “undemocratic system” it is an award scheme that is run for the radio amateurs who take part, not by them. I see no difference between the MT and any governing body that is elected. Once you elect your government you don’t get a vote on every law they make do you? Like government you have to hope that those in power are listening to opinions and will make reasoned judgements.

Generally those that are after a change in the rules wish to do so to make it easier for themselves, but always use the child’s plea of “It’s not fair”. Generally those who shout the loudest are the ones we look at and say “Who is he? I never hear him on the hills.” Generally those that most want to change thing are the least likely to do the work required to implement any change.

Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted. Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy’s will to be imposed on him. The MT was first in the field!

Regards Steve GW7AAV


#69

In reply to DK1ROB:

Hi Rob,

Glad to see that someone, outside Great Britain, is reading.
I agree 100% with you, but we must admit that it is not a simple problem.
As Brian said, we had a very, very long discussion about the scoring system.
But, unfortunatly, very, very few Association Managers took part in this discussion.
And the conclusion was: as they say nothing, they are against modifications, and so, we were minority.
You may ask Dzianis (DD1LD, your AM) what he is thinking about that…
Dzianis and I are now out of the game. But all problems are remaining, P100, bonus, Scoring system etc…
Good luck !

73 Alain F6ENO


#70

In reply to DK1ROB:

SOTA IS an undemocratic system in that the members have little say

There are no members. SOTA is an award scheme. You can’t join SOTA.

I found your initial post very interesting and happen to think that due to the difficulty of some of the Alpine summits there’s merit in further recognition of the challenges to be faced and overcome. I’m unsure of how to recognise it though.

All I know is it is pointless to attempt to compare activations between associations. I still do it, but inside I know it’s pointless!

Andy
MM0FMF


#71

In reply to DK1ROB:

As I said some like jazz and blue cheese and some like rock and cheddar. If what is on offer is jazz and blue cheese then only those who like rock and cheddar are going to complain. The fact is when a handful of people complain and the rest by their silence must be considered to be happy with the status quo. When these things have been raised before more people wrote in private to support the MT than wrote to support those calling for change (read the forum archives).

If you were to put something to the vote who would have a vote? Anyone, Those Registered, Active Activators, Active Chasers? Would those with more than one call-sign get more than one vote? and how do we prove everyone who voted is who they say they are? What about the SWLs who don’t have a callsign? The logistics would mean that a massive amount of unnecessary work would be involved. Ballot papers would have to be mailed to registered and proven addresses and joining SOTA would involve an administration cost. It then becomes a club and not an award and people who do it for fun and not the certificates and trophies drop out.

You are right it is not a war, but you would think so from the way some of the protagonists have approached the subject of change. The sorts of thing that have gone on are the sorts of thing I would expect from slimy politicians and not a few radio amateurs who simply want to play radio from the hilltops.

The way I see it is that the MT are having a party, Jazz music is playing and they are serving Blue Cheese. I can come to the party, in fact anyone can come to the party, but we do not have any right to stand up and demand the MT plays Rock music and serves Cheddar. It is the MT’s party and we can either enjoy ourselves or leave through the door we entered. We can suggest to our hosts that we would prefer different cheese/music or rules, but SOTA is not a club and there is no democratic vote. Personally I like it this way because when you let people have a vote you end up with the lunatics running the asylum and nothing gets done.

Regards Steve GW7AAV

The Art of War is a Chinese military treatise that was written by Sun Tzu in the 6th century BC and remains one of the best books on military strategy. The guy was a genius. If only he had used his genius for something more constructive than killing people!


#72

In reply to DK1ROB:

In reply to G8ADD:

As you say, the various suggested solutions range from the simple
"don’t fix it if it ain’t broke" to the complex and
abstruse. I for one have no doubt in my mind that change will come and
that SOTA, far from breaking under the strain, will be stronger and
the better for it. And yes, I might just turn my mind to a solution…
Partial differential equations, anybody?

73

Rob DK1ROB

For my part, I would be happy to see a change, but we must get it right, the customers would object to episodic tinkering! As it is, I rather doubt that there is any chance of coming up with a simple solution that everybody will be happy with, but I don’t despair of a solution that will please most people although at present I have no idea what the shape of that solution will be. As I have said before, the MT have to be conservative. As SOTA is, it works quite well, hurrying into changes opens the door to errors that could damage SOTA.

If I can make a suggestion, any solution that works well for the great ranges will stand or fall by how it performs in countries with less extreme mountains. If you come up with something that you like the look of, try it out on a non-Alpine Association and see what it does to the scoring there, if it significantly reduces the scoring rate it is bound to meet with strong resistance that would make the current minor grumbling look like a picnic! Having done that, try it out on the Himalaya!

73

Brian G8ADD


#73

I would just like to add my voice to Steve AAV’s comments. The MT have invited us to join in and enjoy SOTA on their terms. I am happy with that, but if you are not, go and do something else. I do believe if it ain’t broke don’t fix it and I have been enjoying SOTA in its current and indeed evolving format since its inception.
Some of the newer SOTA recruits may not be aware of the acrimony and deep unpleasantness that some amateurs perpetuated on this forum against the MT. Lets not have a repeat of that, lets just enjoy SOTA.
By the way, I don’t like jazz, I would rather listen to and look at Cecilia Bartoli and Katherine Jenkins, with the occasional foray into The Who. However I do like blue cheese. Does that count me in?
Cheers
Q GW3BV


#74

In reply to GW7AAV:

The way I see it is that the MT are having a party, Jazz music is playing and
they are serving Blue Cheese. I can come to the party, in fact anyone can
come to the party, but we do not have any right to stand up and demand the MT
plays Rock music and serves Cheddar. It is the MT’s party and we can either
enjoy ourselves or leave through the door we entered. We can suggest to our
hosts that we would prefer different cheese/music or rules, but SOTA is not a
club and there is no democratic vote.

A perfect description of a “benevolent dictatorship”, Steve! I think you are right … and I have no complaints. You’re just being realistic and we should accept the situation as it is.

Personally I like it this way because when you let people have a vote you end
up with the lunatics running the asylum and nothing gets done.

Indeed. You just need to look at the state of the UK’s political system to see that!
:slight_smile:

73,
Walt (G3NYY)


#75

In reply to GW7AAV:

Hi Steve,

When these things have
been raised before more people wrote in private to support the MT than
wrote to support those calling for change (read the forum archives).

Where can we read these support to MT letters ? which forum archives, the reflector ? are they private or public ?

Thanks for your answer.

Alain F6ENO


#76

In reply to F6ENO:

Alain, no decent person will publish a private letter without permission, and he did say private. Bear in mind that those who wrote at the time publicly supporting the MT were subjected to abusive comments so some people preferred to comment in private. The telling point was that out of the hundreds of people active in SOTA at the time, only a relatively small number felt strongly enough about the issues under debate to express an opinion. This did not and does not suggest a strong ground swell in support of change. I am minded of a succinct English saying - when in doubt, don’t!

73

Brian G8ADD


#77

In reply to F6ENO:

They are on the reflector Alain.

Andy
MM0FMF


#78

In reply to DK1ROB:

I quite like Jarlsberg, though for some odd reason it tastes a lot better in Bergen than it does in Birmingham! Exotic cheeses sell well here, though the traditional British cheeses are undoubtably the best! (Ducks for cover!)

Just to be clear about this, the more acrimonious discussions were about whether the G Association should change to P100, the points matter raises little heat here. After all, if the high ranges attracted extra points chasers in the UK would stand to gain! The problem is, as you appreciate, how to procede rather than rooted objections to change.

73

Brian G8ADD


#79

In reply to G8ADD:

Hello Brian,

Alain, no decent person will publish a private letter without
permission, and he did say private.

Of course, a private letter have not to be published. But when we were talking about changing some rules, MT should have say that they received say 10,20 or more supports, so we had stop quickly our work to improve SOTA rules. They only said “you are minority because others don’t say anything, so they are against you”.
It is clear now that actual rules, although not perfect, agree to the majority.
Well, dear friends, thank you all for your answers.

I can see that another important subject is cheese (after Jazz)… so, let’s speek about cheese…
In France, one say there are 350 different cheeses, but I’m not sure it’s realy true.
May we also speak about painting, birds, flowers, butterflies, wines an bears, and… mountains ?

Best 73 to all.

Alain F6ENO


#80

In reply to DK1ROB:

It’s just the odd Continental basket-case

Oh no plenty of basket cases here too and plenty of well reasoned arguments that I happen to disagree with too.

Jazz and rock, Cheddar and blue cheese! - what about Jarlsberg, Gouda, Camembert, Roquefort, Gorgonzola, Mozzarella, Feta, Emmental, Pecorino… man, there’s a whole world out here! Maybe you should get out a little more?

I too like a whole wealth of cheeses and various types of music, but I do not like blue cheese and I am very suspicious about any of the runny cheeses. I love music from classical to metal, but cannot stand Jazz and Country & Western with a few exceptions. I am also particularly fond of German beer and sausages.

In reply to F6ENO:

May we also speak about painting, birds, flowers, butterflies, wines an bears, and… mountains ?

Please do! One of the reasons I love SOTA is it gives me hours of enjoyment sitting on mountains looking at the birds, flowers, butterflies and other surrounding mountains. I wish I could paint what I see and do justice to what I feel. We have no bears in the UK unless you count the threadbare one with buttons for eyes on the bedroom side. Are there really 350 cheeses in France? That is not nearly enough to go with all the wonderful wines that would take a lifetime to explore.

Maybe you do not see my point or maybe you do. There are too many wonderful things about SOTA activation and chasing to see the participators torn apart by petty arguments and there are many more things more important that are worth putting our efforts in to changing. Undue criticism and personal attacks in the past have led to those doing all the work throwing in the towel and we cannot afford for that to happen. In all the ‘discussions’ we have seen no-one has come up with a properly constructed and thought out solution and until that happens change will be destructive rather than constructive.

Best regards Steve GW7AAV