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NP-30 Lovely Seat


#1

Can i ask the Maneagement why from the region of Northern pennines has NP-030 Lovely Seat been deleted as from 30/10/2010, What has been replaced in its place, as the only summit close enough is NP-006 Great Shunner Fell, And i see no other summit close enough to activate. And i as a past summit walker would like to know why its been deleted, I have walked this summit more than a few times from Hawes. And yes a few times walked from the car park with other sota members who no longer take part in sota, I have a few memorys of this summit and i will always remember a few others, in different regions (fond memory’s)
Steve m0sgb


#2

Hi Steve,

Lovely Seat G/NP-030 was removed from the SOTA programme on the 30th of September 2010 because it was surveyed by the RHB earlier this year and it was found that it had a prominence of less than 150 metres. Lovely Seat G/NP-030 has not been replaced by any other hill.

Jimmy M3EYP
G-Association Manager


#3

In reply to M3EYP:
So what happens to our points that have been achived from activators and chasers from activating this summit? If 94 meters is short now, was 94 meters short then and why was we allowed to activate the summit, if things have changed,
So what is the nearest summit ???
Steve m0sgb


#4

In reply to M0SGB:

Nothing happens to your points. Summits come and go all the time. Just like all the previous additions and deletions, points earned stay earned.

Whereas many of us gain enjoyment from climbing the hills and playing radio from them, there are a group of people who gain enjoyment from measuring the heights of the hills. In this case those people surveyed the drop for Lovely Seat and it was 149m not 150m. Lovely Seat isn’t a Marilyn anymore. Neither is it a SOTA summit anymore either.

So what is the nearest summit?

Nearest to what? You? Me? Nelson Mandela?

Andy
MM0FMF


#5

In reply to MM0FMF:

In reply to M0SGB:

Nothing happens to your points. Summits come and go all the time. Just
like all the previous additions and deletions, points earned stay
earned.

Whereas many of us gain enjoyment from climbing the hills and playing
radio from them, there are a group of people who gain enjoyment from
measuring the heights of the hills. In this case those people surveyed
the drop for Lovely Seat and it was 149m not 150m. Lovely Seat isn’t a
Marilyn anymore. Neither is it a SOTA summit anymore either.

So what is the nearest summit?

Nearest to what? You? Me? Nelson Mandela?

Andy
MM0FMF

Nearest to what? You? Me? Nelson Mandela? Dont think i will be traveling to Afica to qualifie a summit, as we have enough here in the UK to go at, i have still got loads to go for, North and south, oh yes and in Scotland, i have still got about 300 points before i get my mountain goat,) i was just wondering wher it had gone as i loved walking from Hawes, on a nicve sunday morning around the wensledale area, you never know you just might catch me out soon,l
Steve m0sgb


#6

Lovely Seat wasn’t thought to be a Marilyn originally either. But a RHB survey found that the drop to the col with Great Shunner Fell was 150m, so it was promoted to the Marilyns list, and therefore onto the SOTA list. A later, better survey, with more accurate equipment (surveying equipment available improves as time goes on, like most technologies) found the drop to Buttertubs Pass was just 149m. Therefore Lovely Seat was demoted from the Marilyns list to the Submarilyns, and could no longer be a SOTA summit.

There is not another hill to replace it. This is not one of those situations. Sometimes we have had the situation where two adjacent hills of similar height have been resurveyed, and one has been found to be higher than the other, contradicting what was previously thought. Where these have less than a 150m drop between them (but more than 25m), it has resulted in one replacing the other as a SOTA summit. Horse Head Moor G/NP-021 - Birks Fell G/NP-031 is an example of this - there are others.

But Lovely Seat is a different sort of case. One where it was thought to have prominence of 150m, but found not to have. Hence it gets deleted.

At least we keep our points. The Marilyn baggers do not. They have to chalk one off their totals! One’s Marilyn count is only ever in respect of the current list.

I don’t know what the nearest summits to Andy or Nelson Mandela is. I do know what the nearest summit to Steve is. But in answer to the question, the nearest (SOTA) summit to Lovely Seat is Great Shunner Fell G/NP-006 at 3.9km. Then it is Kisdon G/NP-026 at 5.2km, then Rogan’s Seat G/NP-014 at 8.9km.

Tom M1EYP


#7

In reply to M1EYP:
Cheers Tom for your reply
Steve m0sgb
glad i dont have to walk up a Nelson Mandella Summit
Steve m0sgb


#8

In reply to M0SGB:

I also have a few pleasant memories of this summit including:

(Video thanks to Nigel M0NJW, and no thanks to Oscar the dog)

73 Rick


#9

In reply to M1EYP:

Where these have less than a 150m drop between them (but more than 25m), it has resulted in one replacing the other as a SOTA summit.

It could happen even if the drop is less than 25m. The vertical distance used to determine the activation area is determined in a straight line between summit and activation area (general rules, page 7) whereas the drop rule used to determine prominence can be an arbitrary path.

So even if a peak has only 1m prominence over another, you could find that the lower is not within the activation area of the higher.


#10

Good spot Martyn, that comment in the rules is incorrect and needs addressing.

Tom M1EYP


#11

In reply to M1EYP:

A later, better survey, with more accurate equipment
(surveying equipment available improves as time goes on, like most
technologies) found the drop to Buttertubs Pass was just 149m.

Sounds like someone needs to nip up there one night with a small bulldozer and scrape a little bit off at Buttertubs pass. :wink:

Colin G8TMV


#12

In reply to M0SGB:

So what is the nearest summit ???

At least there are alternate summits within reasonable range…

Compare with G/SE, G/CE and G/SC (and I’m sure, other areas)

Andrew
M6ADB


#13

SE and SC aren’t so bad as you might think. I’ve actually taken a week’s SOTA holiday in both, and kept myself very busy!

CE is sparse though. The main problem is that it is flat.

Tom M1EYP


#14

In reply to M1EYP:

G/SE and G/SC are OK if you are moving through them… they are more challenging when you have to get home every night :wink:


#15

In reply to M6ADB:
Did all but one SC in a week from a holiday cottage at Bishopswood (near chard at bottom of SC-004) a single, four doubles and a triple - cost a fortune in petrol :slight_smile:
Need to go back to do Wills Neck.

Roger G4OWG


#16

I didn’t dare reckon up the cost of my SC SOTA holiday this summer Roger - in which we also did the 7 DC summits and 3 CEs - but I do remember a heck of a lot of driving. A couple of the three summit days (SC-003,007,008 31st July and SC-004,009,022 1st Aug) resulted in very late arrivals back at the campsite in Minehead!

Tom M1EYP


#17

In reply to M1MAJ:

Where these have less than a 150m drop between them (but more
than 25m), it has resulted in one replacing the other as a SOTA
summit.

It could happen even if the drop is less than 25m. The vertical
distance used to determine the activation area is determined in a
straight line between summit and activation area (general rules, page
7) whereas the drop rule used to determine prominence can be an
arbitrary path.

So even if a peak has only 1m prominence over another, you could find
that the lower is not within the activation area of the higher.

This anomaly will be addressed in the next update to the General Rules.

Les, G3VQO
SOTA MT


#18

In reply to G3VQO:

This anomaly will be addressed in the next update to the General
Rules.

OK, I assumed it was deliberate - somebody clearly once went to some trouble to say what they did. The implication of changing it is that an activation area may no longer have a simple boundary, but can have holes in it.

Of course a huge advantage is that the definition becomes much less dependent on the precise location of the true summit, something that is occasionally uncertain.


#19

In reply to M1EYP:

A couple of the three summit(SC-003,007,008 31st July and SC-004,009,022 1st Aug) resulted in very late arrivals back at the campsite in Minehead!

For me, a single 6 summit day (SC-005, SC-006, SC-002, SC-004, SC-003 and SC-010) meant a very late arrival back in Northampton - well after midnight in fact.

With regards to Lovely Seat, it is a real shame that it has been demoted as it worked well with Great Shunner. I certainly enjoyed the contrast between a trail across the moor and a short stiff climb. I wonder how many activators will go up it after activating Great Shunner just for the hell of it.

73, Gerald G4OIG


#20

In reply to G4OIG:

For me, a single 6 summit day (SC-005, SC-006, SC-002, SC-004, SC-003
and SC-010) meant a very late arrival back in Northampton - well after
midnight in fact.

Yikes… and I thought I was being optimistic, planning (soon) to do SC-004, SC-003 and SC-010 in one hit!

Andrew