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LD-001 but where is LD-002


#1

Hi
I was looking at doing LD-001 soon. On the Database there is no LD-002, however I have a referance for LD-002 on Memory Map poi’s, does LD-002 no longer exist?


#2

That’s right Steve. It was deleted from the Marilyns list only a few days into the SOTA Programme back in 2002, and hence became a SOTA summit no longer. It was never activated.

Tom


#3

In reply to 2E0KPO:

Just another ridiculous example of why the rules should be looked at Steve. This summit was acceptable at one time until someone, non-sota, waved a magic wand and declared it otherwise, Weird. So many superb Mountains and hills non-sota.

73 Mike


#4

I agree mike. No reason to have removed it as it had been given a SOTA ref but such is life.


#5

In the UK and Ireland associations, we use the Marilyns lists, with permission, as lists of qualifying hills. It would actually create a huge amount of debate within SOTA if we had our own criteria for inclusion. It is hugely convenient to adopt an external independently compiled summit list, and we are lucky in the UK to have a list as accurate, detailed, up-to-date and well-maintained as the RHB Marilyns list to use. More accurate resurveying and the like always means that there is the potential for a summit to be deleted or added. In the case of LD-002 though, RHB deleted it upon admission that it should never have been incuded in the first place - it was way off meeting Marilyn criteria.

I would suggest the situation is “sensible” as opposed to “ridiculous”. The Marilyns list is a great list for us to use. What other hill lists have gems like The Cloud, Bardon Hill and Hope Mountan in them?


#6

In reply to 2E0KPO:

I think this is the summit that “fails” Marilyn status by just 1 metre (I stand to be corrected on that). Is that not sufficient reason for its removal… as indeed for SB-002 and SB-003 recently debated? What of the change from NP-021 to NP-031? Rules is rules and like it or not SOTA takes the lead, not provides it when it comes to height measurements.

If there is a desire to see LD-002 reinstated, perhaps every SOTA activator passing over the col between the summit and LD-001 should carefully throw a few stones aside, then it will get there by right through “erosion”.

73, Gerald


#7

In reply to M1EYP:

…and what decent list would not include such wonderful hills as ex LD-002 and Catbells and a multitude of others too many to mention.


#8

Gerald,

Scafell (formerly G/LD-002) is not even a submarilyn. Its vertical separation from Scafell Pike is only 136m, so 14m outside the criteria. It was included in the original Marilyns list as a subjective choice of the author, despite the fact it was way outside criteria. It was only 4 days into the launch of SOTA that RHB deleted it according to a set of updates, which also removed a few other hills due to recent resurveying at that time.

Mike,

…and what decent list would not include such wonderful hills as ex LD-002 and Catbells and a multitude of others too many to mention.

It was before I was even aware of SOTA, but way back then (2001-2002), I am sure Richard G3CWI and John G3WGV looked long at hard at the criteria for a “SOTA summit”, and the several published hill lists that were available. They selected the Marilyns, and it cannot be doubted that this decision has contributed to the huge popularity of SOTA over the past 5+ years. The main USP of the Marilyns was/is that they offer a wide variety of hills and mountains, and are distributed throughout the UK.

What is the better list/criteria that you have in mind, out of interest?

73, Tom


#9

In reply to 2E0KPO: Well, I was on Scafell, then the Pike and round to Bow Fell and the Crinkles yesterday

Its still there, in all its glory even though not a Marilyn - so what, neither is Chomolugma


#10

In reply to M1EYP:

Hi Tom

I don’t have any other list in mind, it just seems such a shame that so many superb summits don’t qualify as sota summits, summits which may give potential activators a summit closer to home, especially those whose first love is walking and radio second.

As you rightly say, Richard and John did there homework well and their decision to use the Marilyns, along with most other sota rules was a sound one and has most certainly stood the test of time, no doubt about that, I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Having said that, the rules were made 5+ years ago and sota has evolved dramatically since they were drawn up, so are the rules never going to be revisited and possibly revised to fit in with the ever expanding sota movement? purely an observation Tom.

73 Mike


#11

I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere

That’s exactly what it all comes down to Mike. And it’s a lot easier to deal with when we have an independent external body doing the line-drawing.

Having said that, the rules were made 5+ years ago and sota has evolved dramatically since they were drawn up, so are the rules never going to be revisited and possibly revised to fit in with the ever expanding sota movement?

Having only been involved with SOTA for ten months or so, you are possibly not aware of the several rule changes that have been implemented to indeed reflect how SOTA has evolved since its inception. A handy summary of these is available in the ‘Change Control’ section in the SOTA General Rules document, available on the website.

73, Tom


#12

In reply to M1EYP:

Why not incorporate the sub-marilyns, itll give us something new to do & of course the list already exists. I for one fancy operating from the summit of Glastonbury Tor etc. There were 3 reasons why I didnt do my usual Sunday activation today :-

  1. The weather.
  2. The contest
  3. I have to drive so far these days to claim activator points.
    I think I`ll move to Thuringia with all those 800+ 10 & 8 point summits with hardly any drop between. Should keep me going for a while.
    73 Steve G1INK,

#13

In reply to M1EYP:

Having only been involved with SOTA for ten months or so, you are
possibly not aware of the several rule changes that have been
implemented to indeed reflect how SOTA has evolved since its
inception. A handy summary of these is available in the ‘Change
Control’ section in the SOTA General Rules document, available on the
website.

73, Tom

Point taken Tom, I’ll put it down to my ignorance, being a sota infant. Incidentally, how long must one serve in the sota ranks to be taken seriously when voicing an opinion?

I just find it hard to grasp the fact that mole hills such as Cloud, Gun, Hope or even worse a bloomin layby (TW-004) qualify, when the likes of the magnificant Catbells does not.

Wainwright would turn in his grave!!

73 Mike


#14

I wish I never asked!


#15

In reply to 2E0KPO:

I’m glad you did!


#16

In reply to GW0DSP:

Hi Mike

I could’nt agree with you more in that some of the more interesting hills, of which could be included are left out, while the ones you make mention to are, I would also include Arnside Knott, Lambrigg Fell, Gummers How etc, all close to parking areas. Infact in a recent post to you in another topic, one member made reference to ‘Too many single pointers’, intimating in this case that they were not worth chasing on 2m FM (apologies if wrong assumption made), easier to achieve SS, in comparison, on the longer distance, HF SSB/CW bands/modes on the higher international summits which command the higher points. Perhaps Sub-Marilyns could be included in the UK as an add-on to an excellent Marilyn list already enjoyed?

Tom is right though reference the several changes that have taken place since the conception of SOTA. I’m also perhaps ignorant, I cannot find any reference to who makes up the SOTA management team. It appears to me though that Tom always endeavours to answer all the questions asked and appears to take the brunt of unfair critisicim, at times,in doing so… Perhaps others on the MT could also relate to the members the reasons for decisions made or are prepared to discuss with the SOTA membership areas of concern. There obviously are such areas of concern judging by the way this topic is going.

Ian
2E0EDX


#17

In reply to GW0DSP:

:wink:


#18

In reply to M3EDX:

In reply to GW0DSP:

Hi Mike

Tom is right though reference the several changes that have taken
place since the conception of SOTA. I’m also perhaps ignorant, I
cannot find any reference to who makes up the SOTA management team. It
appears to me though that Tom always endeavours to answer all the
questions asked and appears to take the brunt of unfair critisicim, at
times,in doing so… > Ian
2E0EDX

Aha!! so you have noticed Ian. You are correct to say that only Tom seems to answer, but we have to be fair to Tom, He makes it clear that it’s his own personal opinion and not the official MT line. Tom is a big lad and knows the expression…if you can’t stand the heat… If it wasn’t for Tom we would’t even know of the existence of a MT, let’s face it they never seem to make a decision, even when all and sundry were up in arms over recent events, it went unquestioned by MT. Anyway enough on that subject.
Who are the MT? A very good question Ian. Well if you consult the website, where first impressions are or should be made, Richard is still MT and our friend Les G3VQO who is now presumably in Richards vacant spot, gets no mention. So much for change, hi.

73 Mike


#19

Incidentally, how long must one serve in the sota ranks to be taken seriously when voicing an opinion?

My point about your relatively short amount of time involved in SOTA is nothing to do with whether you are taken seriously or not. It is to do with the fact that the issues you raise have all been discussed and dealt with comprehensively and conclusively in that five year time period prior to your involvement. The answers to most of your “Why is there this rule or that rule?” type questions can be found in the archives of the old reflector at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/summits

It doesn’t matter what criteria is set for a hill list, it will always exclude some good hills and include some rotters. The only way around that is to have a subjective list - which would produce far more problems and arguments than it could possibly solve! I’ve yet to see a better hill-definition and hill-list for SOTA in the UK than the Marilyns, and you have yet to suggest one :wink:

Ian - the roles and responsibilities of the members of the SOTA Management Team can be found on the website, although it is due an update which is currently in the process of being completed.

Cheers, Tom M1EYP


#20

In reply to 2E0HJD:

Hi Mick

Absolutely agree with you, that the Marilyn’s within the SOTA programme is and should be regarded as the ‘Bible’. However, as the SOTA programme evolves, so it can be changed, Steve mentions that so-called Sub-Marilyn’s could be incorporated such as LD-002 for example… and why not if thats what the members would wish.
I agree with Tom though adding hills could cause problems, but not if so many were added yearly on a membership concensus by voting for such hills.

Ian
2E0EDX