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Italy I/AA-316, I/AA-315 and I/AA-326 wrong coordinates!


#1

Hello,

the references:

  • I/AA-316 Cima Grava (Activated)
  • I/AA-326 Monte Mutta (Activated)
  • I/AA-315 Cima del vento (Never Activated)

Has wrong coordinates, the actual position is far from the summit.
Unfortunately on both some activations have been done by I/HB9DPR/P and IK3/DK9ES/P.

In my opinion these activations are not valid because we are not sure they have been done on the summit.
I know well these locations because I live a 10 kilometers from them.
I request that they will be removed from the database and log soon

73 de IN3AQK


#2

The same for I/AA-314 Monte Catino, no summit on that position!!


#3

Hi Paolo,
I would suggest that the activators who you quoted come back and respond. I know I would head for the signposted or shown on a local map summit location before trusting GPS coordinates. If that’s what has happened here, the correct loction may have been activated (or within the AZ for the summit). If the activator feels that he (or she) has activated from the wrong location, it is for them to remove their log and request the chasers to delete their entries, rather than have the MT come in and enties in the database.

Ed.


#4

Dear IN3AQK

I know very well that there are a lot of errors in the I-AA summit list. A look in sotamps show this. In such cases I use official topo maps for my activations!

I was on the REAL I/AA-316 Cima Grava. This summit is located in the meran 2000 area. The german speaking locals call them Spieler. This name is also used in some official topo maps.

The same with I/AA-314 Monte Catino also known as Grosser Mittager. This summit is also in the meran 2000 area.

BTW, if you already live in this area and know this well, why in the past do you not sent the correct coordinates to the AM so he can correct this? There are also much more very beautiful summits which classify as sota summits in your region. Before you write to the MT to delete entries from other OMs you should rather help updating and expand your local summit list !!!

73, Tom
HB9DPR


I/G4OBK/P Activation I/TO-314 01/07/15 null and void
#5

Hello HB9DPR, DD5LP, I’m 100% sure that all that have activated the Italian summits have reached the correct summit, by his name and not by the coordinates.
So, morally the activation is valid, for my hamspirit and point of view.

I’ve discovered just yesteryear that some of the summits on my zone have wrong coordinates and I’ve already, yesterday evening, reported it to the sota.uk MTs members and in this reflector.
So excuse HB9DPR for being direct but I’ve done the work!

Please read the following topics to have the right information about the problem:

If you have time read all the first topic that it’s a summary of the current Italian situation.

HB9DPR have you reported that the coordinates are wrong?

I/AA-316 Cima Grava you have activated it two times, but you have not written anything on the page with the summit description.
I’m the first that yesterday and today have reported the problem, here, to the MT, in the summit page.

Some of Veneto summits are also wrong see here:


One is actually in Croatia.

So I’m not here to make an activators public accuse but to highlight an AM lack of control.
However, in my opinion, the activactor should at least report that the summit has wrong coordinates.
Obvioulsy I’m not able to know if it was done in the past for that summits, but it seems NO!

In the case of the Veneto, wrong summits, the activator has reported the problem in 2013 more than two years ago:

http://sotawatch.org/summits.php?summit=I/VE-302

So, I repeat, this is not an accuse to the activators, but I think that the problem should be corrected ASAP.
The Italian admin AM seems not interested as we have the same summits from 2011!!

The rules says that we must activate the summit with an error of 25 meters, it seems a yoke here, the error actually is of Kilometers, or even nations.

I’ve not the intention to review all the italian summits, I’ve proposed me to review at least those of my region.
Yesterday, visually checking on Sota maps, I’ve found six wrong summits over six checked summist, at the moment an error of 100%

Is the Italian Sota program valid?

73 de IN3AQK


#6

Dear Paolo,

I understand you frustrations, but I don’t think the poor activator should be blamed. An activator just goes to the summit as indicated in the database. Small corrections can be made by climbing a few more meters. Now a few more meters won’t work for Italy. We all know that the Italian list has a lot of errors. The MT has chosen to keep that list and as a consequence, we will have to live with the fact that many Italian summits are not equal to the highest point.
Reporting errors? Let me give you a few examples.
On 7 August 2009 PA3FYG reported that for DM/BW-313 name and coordinates are incorrect. It’s just a few hundred meters off, so not dramatical. After more than five years this will be corrected.
On 15 February 2013 I reported to the Region Manager that the coordinates for ZS/FS-018 are about 2 km off. ZS4BS immediately brought this to the attention of the AM. The coordinates have not changed yet.
In April 2013 I reported an error for one of the Dutch summits to the AM. PA/PA-005 at 102 m versus a higher spot nearby at 110 m. The AM let me know that he doesn’t want to change this.
I think it would help if a list with known errors will be published, together with the expected resolution, who will take the required action and date when the problem will be solved. Of course we will have to accept that the MT decides that a particular problem will not be solved. And another question is who will maintain that list?

73, Hans PB2T


#7

Dear Hans PB2T,

I agree with you that the activator should not be blamed for the wrong coordinates.

I make a proposal that could solve in the same time some problems:

  • Lack of Italian summits
  • Difficulty to have new summits inserted in the database (one summits insert per year)
  • wrong summits coordinates (Partially present)

I state that I’m a software developer and that I’ve worked in web mapping and realtime aviation tracking projects.

In the page http://www.sotamaps.org/ a new function should be added called “Summit proposal” steps:

  1. Activators or chasers insert during the year the new summits
  2. Summits enters directly on the Sota database “summit_proposal” marked as “validated = false” they are proposed but not valid.
  3. The nation AM receives periodically the list of proposed summits, or better has a Backoffice access to directly validate them.
  4. The MT, one per year move the validated summits from the “summit_proposal” database to the “summit” database and they became valid.

Summit coordinates revalidation steps function called “Summit adjusts”, partially already exists:

  1. Activators or chasers enter in “Summit adjusts” and change the position
  2. Summits are copied from the summit database to the “summit_proposal” marked as “adjusted = true” “validated= false”, the summit is still valid. The AM receives an email notification.
  3. The nation AM receives periodically the list of adjusted summits, or better has a Backoffice access to directly validate them.
  4. The MT, one per year move the re-validated summits from the “summit_proposal” database to the “summit” database overwriting the wrong ones.

I know that this lead to some programming work for volunteers, they have already done a big and fantastic work, but this could solve a lot of headache.

73 de IN3AQK


#8

Hallo Paolo,
I activated I/AA-326 in 13.10.2012 from the Top of the summit. You are right,
the GPS-Reference of this summit ist very wrong. I never trust any GPS-Data,
I plan my activations always using the maps, in this case the Kompas Nr. 53.

I started the activation from Algund, walking to “Leiter Alm” (1550m). From there
I used the trail nr. 25 which goes to the “Taufenscharte” (2230m) and then the trail nr. 23
to the top of the summit.

So the activation took place at the real summit and not at the wrong GPS-Data-Location.
I did not find the Cima del Vento (I/AA-315) on my map, so I did not make an activation
of this summit, because I never trust GPS.

The result for all Chasers: This activation is valid.

vy 73, Norbert
DK9ES


#9

You have not find Cima del Vento (I/AA-315) because it’s 50 km away from that position, it’s North of Brunnek!!

Obviously I Agree!!


#10

There is another consideration to make about wrong coordinates: the "activator security".

Suppose that, due to wrong coordinates, the activator follows a wrong path to a wrong summit, leading it in a danger and being lost. This could happen in my zone during winter, when tourist association indications are hidden by snow.
In other part of Italy there are no touristic association indications at all and being lost can happen easily if the summit position is wrong.

It’s really important that summits have the correct position.

73 de IN3AQK Paolo


#11

[quote=“IN3AQK, post:10, topic:12171”]It’s really important that summits have the correct position.[/quote]It is even more important that activators take care of themselves when going to a summit, not least by choosing their route to the summit carefully with their own safety as a primary concern.


#12

While SOTA provides as much information as possible, we do not pretend to be a substitute for proper maps and navigation techniques. It is good to have the correct position in the database, but it is even more important that the name should be correct so that the summit can be identified on a map. It seems inconceivable that anybody would be so foolish as to attempt to find and climb a summit with no more information than a set of co-ordinates from a database. There is no substitute for a decent map and doing your “homework” by looking up routes beforehand.

In the end you are responsible for your own safety, the only reason for following “a wrong path to a wrong summit” is incompetence! You identify the summit on a map, you pick the route and follow it, and if you cannot reverse a route you should have more sense than to follow it in the first place!

Brian


#13

Excuse all, my fault, reading your responses now I’ve understood that summits coordinates are not important as I thought.

Please the admins, consider my proposal linked below:

73 and have all good activations on Italian summits.
Paolo IN3AQK


#14

Certainly good coordinates are always the desired goal, and I have confidence the SOTA database will be corrected in time. Brian’s navigation techniques point is not so different than a warning to not blindly follow GPS road navigation. Pay attention. Have a good idea where you are going. Less attentive drivers have found themselves in water hazards and on railroad tracks.

I always verify the database coordinates, and carry a GPS with a Topo map and the coordinates loaded.