Finding mode by band by region from the database

Am I reading this right? ONE summit in the past 6 years.
73,
Rod

That’s not what I’m reading…

Thanks Andy. A quick digest of that data (so I could be mistaken) shows:

For 2m CW:
54 QSOs and 23 activations in 9 years (2006/03 – 2015/09) so average of 2.6 CW activations per year. 5 activations with 4 or more CW contacts.

For 70cm CW:
47 QSOs and 26 activations in 4 years (2007/11 - 2011/10) so average of 6.5 CW activations per year. 1 activation with 4 or more CW contacts.

I don’t need comparative data on FM and SSB to see that CW activity is tiny. However, I’m hoping that reflects the historically small number of 2m/70cm CW G/LD activators and not the willingness of chasers to operate CW.

Yup, CW on VHF and up is not common at all.

However, these are taken from the database and it’s possible some may be logged wrong. i.e. someone was logging and forgot to change CW to FM when they started entering the 2m QSOs.

For comparison there are 88801 QSOs in the database now for all modes/bands in G/LD.

CW on 2/70 is 0.11% of all G/LD logged QSOs!

Always ready and willing to work any CW activation on 2m in the Lake District if I can hear them Andy.

G4OIG/P has usually been the most consistent 2m SOTA station in the UK on SSB or CW over many years, as he specialises somewhat - but Gerald concentrates on uniques so doesn’t visit the LD so much now but concentrates his attentions elsewhere.

Let’s face it, I don’t know if you’ve tried it, I have, and to mount a beam on a summit and keep it pointing in the right direction in the weather we often get, is a fair task compared to using a simple VHF vertical or HF dipole or end fed on a fishing pole. Activators that do it should be admired! I am not one of them these days preferring the aforementioned alternatives.

73 Phil G4OBK

Phil, that’s great to hear (and I’m already using your blogs to help me prepare for some G/LD summits). If my wife lets me, I hope to be in the hills as often as the weather permits.

Re simple antenna: If I’m not with family and the weather’s okay and the summit is not crowded, I’ll default to HF/CW with my linked dipole or EFHW but otherwise I’ve got to be QRV very quickly (and discretely if busy summit).

I did 155km S2S last month (both of us 5W 2m/FM and same Diamond RH770 telescopic ant) so CW surely has to be as good.

I imagine a similar analysis for G/SP, G/CE, G/WB or GW/NW, for instance, would reveal increased CW QSO counts by virtue of higher levels of VHF/UHF contest activity. And of course those would reach into LD easily enough when there’s somebody to work there. So expect a peak in available QSO partners about 6 weekends a year.

Interesting question.

As I think out loud, here are the thoughts that some to my mind…

My personal experience of activating the LD region is that there seem to be plenty of chasers on 2m FM.

Personally I’ve never tried activating 70cm but I suspect that this would be close to impossible as I don’t know many people that scan the 70cm simplex channels or monitor the calling channel. Then again, it might happen if you spotted yourself on the SOTA website and enough locals happened to see the spot.

Virtually all of my Lake District activations have been completed using 2m FM. Sometimes I take a small mast with me, but most of the time have been just a handheld with the stock rubber antenna. It’s rare that I fail to get the required 4 contacts to qualify the summit in the Lake District, especially at busy times (like weekends).

As for CW, which is specifically what your question was about:-

I make the assumption that many of the regular chasers that come up on 2m FM or SSB would also be able to run CW on 2m if they saw your spot on the SOTA website.

This assumes of course that they know CW. There are plenty of people like me that both chase & activate on FM & SSB only, and cannot do CW. Please don’t forget us when activating!!!

My presumption would therefore be that it might be viable if you self spot (and maybe alert in advance to give people some pre-warning).I have done activations (on both HF & 2m) where i haven’t spotted or alerted and somebody has heard me and put a spot on the website for me. However I wouldn’t bank on that if using 2m CW.

Unfortunately I’m not proficient enough in CW to try it. I only just started the extremely long and frustrating process of learning CW about a week ago, so have a very long way to go before I’m proficient enough to actually test this theory.

Would be very interested to know how you get on when you do move to the Lake District?

Or just ask your 2m QSO partner to QSY to 70cms if they can.

Easy, peasy, lemon squeezy.:wink:

That is true.

That said, if you are struggling for the minimum 4 contacts to qualify the summit. I don’t think that the same callsign gets counted towards the minimum 4 QSO’s needed?

I could be wrong but I’m sure I got caught out with this once before when I was struggling to get the 4th QSO on 2m FM.

I asked a station that I’d already worked on 2m FM to QSY to 70cm FM and went home chuffed with myself, thinking that I’d got the summit in the bag.

I was gutted to find that the database wouldn’t give me the points when I entered the QSO’s as it didn’t like the fact that I’d worked the same station twice (even though it was on different bands).

If you have already made the 4 contacts to qualify the summit & merely want to experiment and try a different band, then yes you are of course absolutely correct.

I wouldn’t want to frustrate non-CW chasers by doing only CW. I expect most of my future G/LD activations to be on week days [I’m retired and have the time] so I would always alert then SMS-spot CW-SSB-FM (in that order). I’ve done 99% QRP for the last 25 years and my QSOs are still around 15-17wpm. I’m also very patient and encouraging with rusty op’s getting back into CW and happy to go much slower. It would be good to increase the popularity of CW on VHF/UHF.

Another thing that’s struck me from Andy’s data is that there were only 9 activators for all 2m/70cm CW QSOs in G/LD – so very much a minority sport. I wonder how many of them took a big yagi and pole? That’s not the quick-to-QRV situation I’m looking for (If I’ve time to put up a pole, I may as well put up my HF dipole).

Perhaps polarisation is a factor here. The vertical goes with FM but if CW/SSB chasers are horizontally polarised then maybe a vertically-polarised activator will have trouble being heard.

So, I’m going to do a few SSB tests from my local SOTA summit comparing a Diamond RH-770 telescopic with a Sandpiper 2m 3-element yagi mounted horizontally on a camera tripod. By connecting them to the rear and front antenna sockets of my FT-817 I can readily switch between antennas during the same over to compare Tx and Rx signal strengths.

Very true.

Those are the conventions that we have come to accept in amateur radio.

Then again I have listened to (and contacted) stations participating in the RSGB backpacker 2m QRP contest with just a vertical on the roof (Diamond V-2000). By the nature of the contest I would imagine that most were running very low power (from memory, I think 10 watts is the limit according to the rules) with horizontal polarisation from a beam. Most of them would have likely been on a hill somewhere

Obviously working with the wrong polarisation isn’t ideal, and will never be as good as if both stations used the same polarisation.

I guess you would probably lose an S point or two due to the wrong polarisation and you’re probably not going to work any serious DX, but it can still be done.

I’ve not done any side by side comparisons as you suggest, so would be interested to hear what you find.

The older activations will have been done probably using a SOTAbeams 3 ele Yagi on 2m or the 3/6ele 2m/70 Yagi. It was simple to deploy and all the elements could be stored in the beam which was made from PVC waste pipe. Add several hundred metres of elevation and 5W + 3ele + CW on 2m is quite potent especially as keen 2m CW chasers may well have a decent station.

Andy, make a noise before you go out and you’ll find there will be quite a few stations prepared to try to chase you on 2m CW.

The cross polarisation loss is usually quoted as 20dB, which is quite a lot but my own experience suggests that it is in the right ball park. An interesting compromise is an antenna at 45 degrees, which gives a “mere” 3dB loss for both vertical and horizontal polarisation.

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I thought that someone would pipe up with an actual figure sooner or later!!!

I knew that there would be a fairly noticeable difference. I didn’t realise that it would be that much loss though.

Everyday’s a school day!!!

So, either stand with your rig on the steep side of the summit leaning out or bend your antenna over like this …


Better than getting an aching arm through holding a yagi cos you didn’t want to carry a tripod.

I stayed up after midnight last night reading all 158 postings on ‘2m SSB SOTA’ topic, most of which is relevant to my interest in CW on 2m ….

I concluded …

  1. 2m FM activity is still high and getting 4 contacts to activate most (non-remote) UK summits using low power and non-rubber-duck antenna is usually achievable if you post alert then self-spot.
  2. Anecdotal experience suggests casual day-to-day SSB/CW activity on VHF/UHF has dropped over the last 10 to 15 years - Gerald (G4OIG), Brian (G8ADD).
  3. This is probably due to the drift of most amateurs away from VHF/UHF to ‘more for less effort’ [my words] HF since the Morse code requirement was abolished - Andy (MM0FMF).
  4. There’s still a lot of periodic 2m/SSB activity for SOTA activators if you activate during VHF contests/events - Tom (M1EYP).
  5. Serious DX-chasing SSB/CW activators use an elevated horizontal Yagi/beam (G4IOG).
  6. Many (most?) recently-licensed VHF/UHF chasers probably use a single vertical antenna at home QTH, e.g. co-linear, mainly for FM.
  7. Using mixed polarization (e.g. activator vertical, chaser horizontal) could attenuate signal strength by 20dB. Angling vertical antenna to 45 degrees may reduce loss to about 3dB (G8ADD).
  8. Steve (G1INK) speculates about how many activators try vertical SSB and spot the fact so chasers with co-linears may venture to listen. The idea is supported by others - Dave (M6RUG), Mike (2E0YYY), Gerald (G4IOG).

My SOTA and WOTA hill walks in G/LD will be during daylight hours usually on week days and unlikely to be aligned with contests so I’ll be relying mainly on SOTA chasers. As I said earlier, my use of 2m/70cm is intended for those walks where I need to be QRV quickly, so there’s no point lugging a Yagi and pole/tripod (I’ve tried my Sandpiper 3-el Yagi handheld but my arm ached in no time).

If it turns out that a simple vertical like my Diamond RH770 is unusable because all the SSB/CW chasers have horizontal antennas then my plan is doomed, and I’ll resort to FM only. Looking on the bright side (points 6 and 8 above), I want to try vertical CW/SSB activating, alert and spot that fact of course, and see what the response is. And if I find out a chaser is H-polarized then I could try angling the antenna.

Who knows, if it works out, I might end up taking the FT817 more often than the KX2.

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Cross polarisation loss can be enormous around 30dB. But unless your antenna is many wavelengths above ground, or you are standing at the edge of a significant cliff face and you have a LOS path then the real world cross loss will be much nearer 3 to 6dB. This is because much of the signal will include non-direct components at various polarisations.

You could always take a leaf out of the PM handbook and rig an antenna support that mounts on or sticks out of your backpack. Something that holds a simple 2m dipole a couple of feet above your head. You should be able to deploy something on those lines in a few minutes.

I’m too self-conscious to have a dipole on a stick above my head (my wife would say I look like Mr Bean) but I agree with you I need a horizontal solution if most of the SSB/CW chasers are that way inclined.

I’ve found I can put my Sandpiper 3el Yagi onto a modified camera tripod pretty quickly (though I could stick to FM if family with me think it’s not quick enough). Everything fits (more or less) into the tripod shoulder bag and weigh 1.58kg.

I was too cissy to take the gear out in the rain today but from my bedroom I can get GB3VHF (90km away) and found its Morse ID 3/3 on the Diamond RH770 and 5/5 on the horizontal Yagi (sure it would be better without the metal window frames). So, will take both antennas on the next few 2m activations.

* plonk *