The new DM region lists for 2009 have been uploaded to the Database. Many thanks to Andy, Uli and the rest of the team for an excellent job in completing this task ready for the New Year. SOTAwatch will be updated to reflect the changes very shortly, but not immediately, hence there may be a conflict just in the next few days.
Please note that the new minimum height for winter bonus - 900m ASL, as set by the DM Team, is now incorporated into the Database. This new parameter only takes effect from 1/1/09, but at present, the DB has applied it to all activations of DM summits back to 2003. Gary G0HJQ is working on a revision to the Database and the updating software, and so this error should be rectified in the next few days. In the meantime, some of the activators’ scores will be incorrect; please bear with us.
This update for DM SOTA is only the initial part of the job. New P100 summits not previously included have been identified, and these may be added over the course of the next few months.
Again, thanks to the DM AM and RMs for an excellent collaboration on this work.
Mario, you will be missed, I hope you change your mind.
Assembling a summit list and checking prominences is very hard work, if human frailty allows a few errors to slip through then at least they can be corrected in future revisions.
Thank you very much for uploading the new DM summit lists in time.
Looking on the lists for the regions I know for myself, parts of DM/NW, DM/RP, DM/HE, and comparing the summit lists with my walking maps and my own experience, I must recognize that there may be many, many errors in the new lists.
But it is OK at first, we have a valid summit list and can plan and start activations.
Nevertheless there is much work left for the future. Many thanks to AM, RMs and MT for your work and please go on working to make the new lists better!
hi all,
i wonder that only dl/dm is affected from these changes who are discussed from ALL rm´s and am´s at the beginning of the year.
it seems all is only about german sota. especially these summits on mountain ridges who many other assocs. also have in the summit lists. at example OE/VB 348-340-428 , OE/VB 290-256 etc…HB/BE-047 - HB/UR-027 … F/PO-016-017… F/PO-010-013…OK/KR-009,060… etc… maybe in other assocs. all these is possible and there are many other same examples in the refs.lists of other countries. i wonder …
It would be amazing if there were not errors in other summit lists. Even the G summit list has changed over the last few year as more accurate surveying has become available - and that list is a long-standing one.
I think that the Isle of Man Association is probably perfect but suspect that errors in other Associations will need correcting as time goes by. Prominence is quite a subtle definition and it remains the case that many people fail to grasp what it actually means.
It primarily applies to the German SOTA as they were the association that didn’t require prominence for a hill to be included in the first place. The situation in the UK is made easier as the list used is based on the book “The Relative Hills of Britain”. Since this was published in 1992 there have been many changes to due better surveying methods and the correction of simple errors on the maps used.
Yes you are right that there is a lot of activity around the DM/DL associations right now because they were the lists that were discussed as not being totally compliant with P150 when this was raised some months ago (last year). To mitigate some of the losses in the lists after the review, the new ones have been drawn up with P100 conditions (as an exception to P150). I strongly believe that there are more P100 summits that can be added later if the AM/RM’s wish.
In the meantime, yes there are some other AM’s in other associations who are already/will be looking very carefully at their summit lists with more sophisticated tools and have already determined changes to be made. These will obviously follow in due course when their work is complete. I will provide them with whatever support is needed before any new lists are checked and entered into the programme.
Finally, as Richard says, prominence is a challenging concept for some and there are also more accurate surveys being done from time to time that bring new summits into qualifying lists. These lists will always be subject to change.
In reply to G0AZS:
Thanks all for answers,
but for me it seems that in 2008 all was about german summits.
the mass of the discussions again and again on dm summits let me
stop with all activities in sota after the summer.after all these sometimes
endless discussions i haven´t the fun as in the begining to activate again
summits in dm-land. but for sure , i love the summits and 3 or 4 times a week i´m
into the hills, but without radio, therefore a bit faster :-)like these hill runnings…
but after the activating summits for sota i make one big job for dm-sota mt.
i reworked the full 800+ summits alone in much much days,nights…it was very hard work …most of them are ok in the new list, but it makes me a little bit angry to see that summits like DM/BW-038 Lemberg is no longer valid
for sota ??? have the prominence 150+ in all directions and is a well known peak in my area.maybe this happens if someone makes the work,who is far away
and works only with a software and don´t know the area here
this should be a summit for me for future "just for fun " activations from my side , but now its deleted maybe i come back with a few activations next spring,summer. in moment i´m full of sport goals i wan´t to reach this year and have a very hard training 5 to 6 days a week but i hope i will find a bit time in future to say hello to old sota friends…
I’m looking at DM/BW-38 now in Google Earth and it shows a large mountain with 4 ridges, a bit like the letter Y upside down with Lemberg on the South West.
Now Google Earth is not particularly accurate but looking at the complex of summits, the highest appears in the centre and is neither BW-38 nor BW-237. If the central summit is the highest, then for BW-38 to remain valid the drop between the central summit and BW-38 has to be at least 100m. At best this appears to be only 80m.
Now I can believe that Google Earth is inaccurate enough that the drop may be 100m and not 80m in which case BW-38 would be valid. But you are claiming 150m for this summit Klaus? It doesn’t look anything like that on my Google Earth. If BW-38 is 1010m high then the col would need to be 860m for P150 and the best I can find is 930m.
It’s possible the central summit (sorry I don’t know its name) is not higher than BW-38, but Google Earth shows ground at 1016m and only 1011 for BW-38. Either way, of the possible summits in the complex it looks like there is only 1 possible P100 summit and if any of the others are higher than BW-38 then BW-38 can’t be a valid P100 SOTA summit.
I happy to be proved wrong. Someone will have accurate height information for this area.
… it makes me a little bit angry to see that summits like DM/BW-038
Lemberg is no longer valid for sota ??? have the prominence 150+ in
all directions and is a well known peak in my area.maybe this happens
if someone makes the work,who is far away and works only with a
software and don´t know the area here
Hi Klaus
Even a quick visit to GoogleEarth shows that you are mistaken! If we look at the position of DM/BW-038 ( 8 45 1 E and 48 9 2 N ) we can see its height as being around 1015m as listed. If we look just a little to the north-east, to position 8 45 25 E and 48 9 29 N, it is easy to find a higher summit at around 1020m. The minimum height of the ground in between does not fall below 940m. It would need to fall to 915m to allow BW-038 to be valid as a P100 summit, don’t you agree?
Remember also that GoogleEarth shows only approximate heights, and that the software used for SOTA is far more accurate. So, it seems that we may have already found one of the previously-unlisted summits that Marc has mentioned. It is still very near to you, and those few extra metres of ascent will assist your fitness even more!
I look forward to working you on this new SOTA summit as soon as it is included in the SOTA-DM listing.
In reply to G3VQO:
hi Les,
i know and see this on my digital map
but everyone knows this summit as “Lemberg”. the neighbour summit is a summit with no name given in topographic maps so i think we can choose the name as it is or its a summit with no name so maybe we have to correct only the coordinates a little bit to the highest point ??. its defenitly a +p150
As there appears to be an intervening drop of more than 25m, the activation zones of Lemberg and the un-named summit do not overlap. Therefore, in accordance with normal SOTA practice, BW-038 must be deleted and the new summit listed with a new reference number. Whether it is still called Lemberg is a decision for the German AM/RM …
I think the reason for a lot of the “angst” Les is that the process of revision to the DM and DL summits has only been half completed as this example clearly shows. Summits such as BW-038 have been deleted, but nothing proposed to replace it, yet Klaus clearly knows from first hand knowledge that a P150 summit does indeed exist. In this case there is a perceived loss of 2 summits, whereas in reality, given time for the new summit to be registered, the loss will only be 1.
is it so difficult to trust someone who knows “his” regional summits ?
the data in google earth is wrong ! the higher peak you mean has only 1009m asl.
, not as shown higher in google earth ! the Lemberg is the highest peak of the swabian alps with 1015m. i looked in the offical top50 (topographic maps of the goverment bw 1:50.000 who is new every year ) and is the most correct aviable map you can have from this country.
that was the problem i spoked about before.someone makes and check summit list who is far away with only a software with data from the net. also google earth is wrong as you see your self in your posts before ! and so it happens that a correct summit was deleted by the mt-uk who don`t know the area here !
not ok i think …
In reply to G4OIG:
hi gerald,
i will only say, that there is a problem when a regional manager says ths summit is a valid p150, and then the mt-uk delete this summit by the use of a simple software with incorrect data. why the am´s and rm´s should do then make all the work to find summits ?
Then make up your mind (no need to post it…) if deleting this summit in favour of an unnamed and ignored bump is what should be done. It has been said here many times: SOTA aspiring to be an international program should have rules fit for international topographic differences and morphologies.
It’s interesting that the SRTM data shows the other peak as higher. It’s possible that the same situation exists in Germany as in the UK with regards to mapping.
In the UK for approx. 30 years, the OS 1:50000 maps for where I live showed that West Cairn Hill (562m) was 2m higher than East Cairn Hill (560m). So West Cairn Hill was the P150 summit. Then in 2006 the maps were revised and the missing data was drawn showing that East Cairn Hill was 567m not 560m. A year later this was noted by the RHB group and East Cairn Hill became the P150 summit. Nothing had changed on the summits other than 4 missing characters (567m) were drawn on the map. The contours were always there showing that East Cairn Law was higher, nobody noticed it was.
It is possible that nobody from the German mapping body has accurately surveyed the height of those hills for many years and that the data on your TOP50 map is wrong. It might be wrong, but in general it’s accurate enough. It will be difficult to measure the exact height as the summits are covered in trees and that can lead to Lemberg being mapped as the higher summit when it may not be. This situation arises time after time after in the UK due to the way the original data was produced and I hardly think the situation in Germany (or anywhere else) will be substantially different.
the Lemberg is the highest peak of the swabian alps with 1015m
Everyone knows this. But are they sure? For 50 years scientists were sure that the human being had 48 chromosomes till someone counted them properly and found we only have 46. Similarly, Lemberg may not be the highest summit. Or it may be. However, all you can be sure of is that somewhere on the big lump of rock that Lemberg is part of will be the true summit that is P150.
Next time you go there, take your GPS and try surveying it yourself. You may be surprised. That it unless you believe the German TOP50 maps are infallible, map makers never make mistakes and all surveying, no matter how long ago it was performed is perfect.
in this case everything is possible. Don’t trust anybody or anything. Who tell us SRTM is correct? We all are right and we all are wrong. GPS is as long accurate as long the US forces do not activate a impreciseness. So can we trust it? All the software works correctly? Who knows?
impreciseness. So can we trust it? All the software works correctly?
Who knows?
You could test that by checking the UK Marilyn list with the SRTM data. Actually I thought that Marc G0AZS would start by that first to prove that the new method is valid one.
To MM0FMF: Germany is different from UK since it has Alps. The summit height ASL is changing all the time due to thickness of snow and ice above 3500 m. For the lower summits the summer values without snow can be used. In long term the mountains do move and change shape. Human activity can accelerate this process.
maybe i come back with a few activations next spring,summer. in moment i´m full of sport goals i wan´t to reach this year and have a very hard training 5 to 6 days a week 