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Call upon chasers when 2 activators are on one summit


#21

You have attributed your quote to the wrong person, Phil. It was G8ADD who made this suggestion … not me!

73,
Walt (G3NYY)


#22

No, the software squashes a series of quotes to a minimum, you need to click the expand button.

Before expanding a post, the expand button is above the red mark.

After expanding, the button changes and all the quotes appear.

I can understand compressing the quotes, otherwise a huge trail would fill the screen but the compressed version should be more visually obvious that there are quotes.


#23

You missed the point, Walt! If the two activators alternate - FOR EVERY CHASER - then at the very worst the chaser will have the two activators in the wrong order, a trivial problem since both activators WILL have been worked.


#24

There is no right way, just what you feel is best yourself and it’s a personal choice Brian, I don’t like the alternating approach and would not do it that way myself but if I’m chasing I have no choice and have to follow the activators.

What I have found works when 2 people share the radio is for the 1st activator to work 4 then the other takes over and either works all the remaining chasers or at least a big chunk of them. The next shared activation, swap the order of who goes 1st. Each activater gets 4 QSOs and I would only swap mid activation if someone in a juicy location calls in.

It is a worry that you may not get 4 QSOs each, but normally you can tell during the 1st 4 if it’s going to be an issue and then ask the chasers to wait and work the other guy.


#25

It’s interesting that there’s little mention here of simultaneous operation - but many joint activations are done this way now.

N0TA John and I both have KX2 radios and usually operate simultaneously:

  1. Usually CW
  2. On different HF bands - 40, 30, 20, 17, 15M
  3. We both use homebrew bandpass tuners with considerable rejection of out-of-band signals
  4. We generally run 10W output
  5. We use end-fed antennas on poles - usually 52 feet or 66 feet long
  6. We set up at least 200 feet apart, and even more when practical
  7. We have operated successfully at 100 feet separation with a few minor issues
  8. There are very few problems at greater than 200 feet separation

When we happen to tune onto the same band, which is inevitable, we can hear the other station’s low-level unwanted products spread across the band. When we’re relatively close physically, the KX2 detects the overload and cuts off the receive preamp to protect it. So far we’ve had no damage, despite numerous instances of being on the same band.

Until recently, we had no voice communication for coordination or other issues. We’ve started using UHF FRS radios for coordination, as well as for problems or opportunities, such as S2S stations on the air.

When we set up 200-300 M apart, we can operate on the SAME band, provided we’re at least about 20-30 KHz apart. For example, one of us can be running a pile at 7.063, while the other is calling an S2S station at 7.033. This is only possible with a radio with a strong front end.

When we must set up more closely, there’s less trouble if the antennas are perpendicular, but we still have significant coupling in the vertical plane. On small summits we just have to do our best and accept some minor aggravation.

If the antennas are close, we notice various effects when operating simultaneously of different bands:

  1. De-sensing during CW characters, particularly when the receive preamp is on. Usually this is just a nuisance, not serious enough to prevent copying the desired signal.
  2. Clicks or pops related to the other station’s signals
  3. Unwanted products audible at various frequencies - ghost signals
  4. Strong harmonics at 2F, 3F, etc.

Of course, your results may vary, but with 200-300M separation, simultaneous operation on different bands may be practical with many other radios.

Many of our chasers catch both of us, and getting enough contacts has never been a problem. We usually post alerts, and the RBN spots us very reliably, usually within 1-2 minutes. We actually draw large numbers of chasers, probably because they know we’ll both be on several bands, with relatively efficient stations, so they have a very high chance of contacting one or both of us!

73
George
KX0R


#26

All good discussion as Hugh and I suffer from this phenomenon quite often, I usually can save my activation by using cw if I go second.
My question is why such a rule exists in the first place.
3. With effect from 01-Jan-2004, only one QSO with a given Summit on any one day
(defined as 00:00 to 23:59 UTC) counts for points.
What if I am activating and another activator turns up on the same summit with out notice in the same time period I am there can the chasers score his activation.
After all we both drove hundreds off km’s probably and made a good hike of it to activate then our loyal chasers can’t score the person who is on air second .
vk5cz …


#27

I don’t know Ian, it was created before my time. What I can say is that having been around the rules making process in SOTA, nothing changes quickly or easily and so there will have been some good reason for the change.

From experience, most chasers will try to work every activator they can. Sometimes in the UK I have had the same chaser work me on 2m/70cms FM and 40m SSB & CW even though they will only get a single point. I only know of a few chasers who will avoid working an activator because they have already chased the summit. I think this is because they want a 100% unique chasing record. They could achieve that by working everything they hear and only logging the uniques rather than leave someone struggling for contacts but there is nothing compelling them to chaser everything.

Maybe some of the long time MT members will remember the reason for the change?


#28

Some time in December '17 I worked GM6ZAK on GM/SS-154. About an hour later GM3YTS turned up on the same summit, and I also worked him.
The 2 activations were clearly not related in any way.
I have submitted both contacts to the Database, but I have not been credited with any Chaser Points for the contact with GM3YTS.
I suggest to the MT that the “single contact credit per summit per day” is reviewed, otherwise the ‘problem’ which this thread is highlighting will increase as the popularity of SOTA increases!
73
Ken
GM0AXY


#29

Unfortunately in the early days all discussions took place on a Yahoo Group which I think no longer exists, so the reasoning behind this rule may be lost unless the program originators can remember the reason.

The rule does seem pointless (pun unintended!) so it will be discussed. The MT thinks very carefully before changing rules that have existed for a good number of years, in case there are unintended consequences, but at first sight there does seem to be a good case for removing this rule.


#30

I suggest it is left well alone unless reports of second expeditions failing to qualify summits suggest otherwise.

It seems to me that very careful consideration is need before changing this rule and if it is changed to the exactness of the wording that replaces it.

I can see removal of the rule having consequences for activators changing band to widen their contact list and getting the same again (already sometimes a problem).

Slowness of progress through a pile-up came up earlier in the thread; what will happen when there is a points incentive for chasers to repeat contact?

73,
Rod


#31

This is a good example of why the MT is so cautious about changing rules. On the one hand second and subsequent activators might have difficulties in qualifying a summit under the present rule, but on the other hand if we rescind the rule then pile-ups may become larger. Which is the worse alternative? That is for you to advise and us to decide!:smiley:


#32

I wouldn’t change it. Activators taking part in joint activations know the risks and should plan their operating strategy accordingly.
We have examples like EA2DCA and EA2DNO of activators planning a good operating strategy to avoid the risk of some of them not qualifying due to less than 4 QSOs in the log.
I have also taken part in joint activations and succeeded to qualify thanks to a well planned operating strategy.
Of course, if 3 or 4 operators decide to go in a joint activation with just a 23cm band station, they may have troubles to find chasers for all the activators. It’s up to them to decide whether they want to do it tough or easy.
Best 73,

Guru


#33

When I have a partner with me, we usually trade off with the chaser that is there. For example, I make contact with them. I thank them for the contact. I tell them someone else would like to work them. They work each other. This can be done in less than a minute and I do not re-call a time where there ever was an issue.


#34

This is my repeated experience in VK as well. The chasers are always accommodating.
Compton


#35

On all the joint activations I’ve done, both intentional and accidental, I’ve never had a problem getting enough chasers for both activators.


#36

Hello Brian,

Until you can determine the reason for the introduction of the Rule the MT would present a smaller target than if the Rule were changed and then you had to live with a lot of uncomfortable consequences. My supposition is that the Rule was introduced after suitably long deliberations and not at the wave of a quill.

As present:
People with multiple callsigns masquerading as two activation’s are prevented from handing out extra points to friends.:sunglasses::heart_eyes:
In a multiple activator station, the owner can justly cream off the best contacts and S2S and the serf who tagged along with the batteries on his back takes whatever pickings are left. This mirrors our societal rules.:face_with_monocle:
Unseemly queues are decimated as there is no incentive for chasers to hang around for the other guy.:biking_man:
It encourages early rising and activations before work - the later people don’t offer any points except for late sleeping chasers.:timer_clock::
.Public mass activation is discouraged, no bussing in a whole radio club to The Cloud.:minibus:

My zac’s worth.

73
Ron
VK3AFW


#37

It isn’t just a matter of joint activations, though. It is not uncommon for popular summits to get two or three independant activations in a day, and as has been pointed out, with the increasing popularity of SOTA this is likely to happen more often in future. Add to this the generally increasing numbers of activations, and chasers will be less inclined to work activations that gain them no points when there are other activations to chase at the same time. Look at it this way: most chasers are probably happy to work activators even though they gain no points from the contact as long as they lose nothing by doing so. If it comes down to a choice between a no scoring contact and chasing on another frequency for a scoring contact, who could blame a chaser for choosing the second option?


#38

I understand your point and I fully agree.
The situation of having more than one independant activation in a day sounds unlkely over here, but I can understand it can be totally different in other areas with less summits and more SOTA activators near by.
This may however create a new trend of radioclubs organising SOTA-expeditions to some local summits, as this would easily offer important number of points (summit points x number of operators in the expedition) to the chasers.
Well, let’s give this a thought and see what it comes…
73,

Guru


#39

There are also likely to be more chasers as SOTA popularity increases, and they won’t all be available throughout the day eg there may be a pool available for each successive activation during the day.

Also, not everyone is motivated only by points. Many activators do “pointless” activations for all sorts of reasons, and I think chasers also enjoy chasing not always just for the points.

It’s a good idea to think around this, but until evidence of a real problem surfaces I’d hold the horses. Or goats.


#40

Yes, I see that possibility, but remember that such a mass activation would be intended for the benefit of the activators, perhaps as a special activity so that members can try out SOTA, and those activators will be disappointed if they cannot get their points because of chaser fatigue! Chasers might benefit from a points bonanza but as I see it the chaser category was devised to make life easier for activators, and IIRC the Bible says “Do not bind the mouths of the cattle that tread the grain”!