In reply to GW0DSP:
Well i have still got other summits to go for like the Welsh ones, all Southern ones and even the Scottish ones,
so in my eyes it’s the chasers that are crying for these p100’s, and not the activators, i dont see many activators shouting for them, like someone else said, why have them on here, when the summitsbase web site has them on their web site, for all to go for, that should be enough,
Steve m0sgb getting ready for bed NYTE ALL.
In reply to M0SGB:
There are plenty of activators in favour of P100 Steve, your friend Inky for example.
I appreciate your view but to say that it’s just the chasers who want P100 is incorrect.
Good night Steve and it’s great to see you back on the summits by the way.
Mike GW0DSP
I too, have many left to go for. Good point Steve. And most still have even more left to go for than you or I!
If and when I run out, I will revisit summits, be it for points in a new calendar year, or zero points on a certain local summit. It doesn’t matter, there will not be an end to my fun in SOTA - until I’ve had enough of it.
And if/when that happens, I will find something else to do, rather than campaign for a new set of rules to work with.
Tom M1EYP
In reply to M1EYP:
Tom, I don’t know if you refer to me as campaigning for a rule change, that’s not the case. I just added my personal thoughts to the debate.
Good point about the Cloud, do I want a point for each activation of hope Mountain? No thank you, same as you. For me, Hope Mountain is a very enjoyable way to pass a few hours, but more importantly to me, it allows me the chance to give a few points back to the regular activators.
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to GW0DSP:
Though I am not a frequent activator, my hill time being shared with other things (for instance scrambling and a bit of traditional [not “sports”] climbing) I do activate and I support P100 for G for reasons I have given before. I do not see that chasers would be much affected by a change from P150 to P100, it should not lead to any great increase in activations. On the other hand activators would benefit from an increase in the number of multi-summit walks leading to less motoring, more hill time and an enhanced mountain experience.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
All valid points Brian, but if the activators benefit from multi summit walks, surely it follows that the chasers must also benefit from those multi summit walks/activations.
I really have no more to add, but have enjoyed the debate in which I hope I have been seen to post within the guidelines as set out for the reflector and under the assurances I gave MT.
Good night Brian
73
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to GW0DSP:
Well, yes and no, Mike, I do not think that there will be many more activations if the change to P100 takes place, but there will be more uniques to work. So, little increase in the scoring rate but more uniques in the table. A multi-summit walk would be more enjoyable for the activator but the chaser cannot share that experience other than vicariously if he/she already knows the terrain.
Mike, your input has been insightful and temperate and I think the debate has been fruitful. Don’t expect rapid and sweeping changes, though, the weight of responsibility makes members of the MT wary of accidentally doing harm whilst trying to do good, sometimes it seems safer to do nothing!
Well, a quick tune round the 5 megs channels to see if anything is doing, then I’m hitting the sack!
Goodnight.
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
Thanks Brian, obviously I am walking on eggshells a bit, but have enjoyed this debate. Of course change can’t happen over night, but without good open debate there would never be any change. I think a lot of good points have been made by the contributors to this thread, that can only be a good thing for SOTA in general.
Enjoy your 5 megs dx hunt, I’m off to bed.
Good night
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to Mike and Brian:
Nice to read your last words !
73
Alain
Hi all,
The thing I like about P150 is that I can activate all the summits in England.
If P100 comes in I won’t be able to activate all the summits in England because some Humps are on private in impossible to walk up and activate. When I complete all of England there are still plenty of summits in Wales, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland and Scotland I can activate.
Jimmy M3EYP
In reply to M3EYP:
Hi Jimmy
What about Myarth, Swinside, etc?
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to M3EYP:
Hi, Jimmy! Yes, you are right, and it is difficult to complete Wales at P150 for that very reason. On the other hand P100 offers some delightful excursions in the Lake District: the Mosedale circuit, or leave Pillar and Kirkfell for the circuit of Ennerdale and do Yewbarrow to Middle Fell, and the head of Langdale taking in the Crinkle Crags and Bowfell, potential SOTA walks that I would be happy to drag my aging carcase around!
This is the trouble when discussing the rules and whether they should be changed, there are always good arguments on both sides and its not easy to weigh them.
73
Brian G8ADD
Dear All
Before we get further into the old discussion of changing the rules or adopting different prominences in G land, let’s not forget the original point of this thread.
The first post was a “new list for Belgium P-100” proposed by Luc. The question was then asked as to whether they even satisfied the P100 conditions. Now we seem to be discussing changing the rules rather than trying to get the concept of prominence understood well enough so that it is applied either as P100 or P150 (or P300, P500 etc) in any association.
We are very lucky in the UK to have had the hard work of establishing prominence done for us (either as Marylyns or Humps). Better that this discussion addresses the point that, as been said by a few posters, the “rules” should be applied evenly across all associations with respect to whatever prominence they adopt.
I very much appreciate the fact that Luc is trying to expand the ON activity further, even if the list will now need some housekeeping to come back to P100, this will be straight forward enough to do.
73 Marc G0AZS
In reply to G0AZS:
Dear All
I agree with most that you say Marc.
Better that this
discussion addresses the point that, as been said by a few posters,
the “rules” should be applied evenly across all associations
with respect to whatever prominence they adopt.
The only problem I have with all associations being equal in prominence is that if we all have P100 for example, then let’s have it without strings attached, ie although MT say that all associations can now go to minimum P100, the G and GM AMs have categorically said we can’t have P100. Roger, the GW AM is happy with P150 for the time being. I don’t see the point in offering P100 then putting a get out clause in the form of the AMs. We need equality for all, whether P100 or P500 it doesn’t matter, but equality for all does matter.
I appreciate the fact that Luc is trying to expand the ON activity
further, even if the list will now need some housekeeping to come back
to P100, this will be straight forward enough to do.73 Marc G0AZS
Luc has worked on this for 1 year and should be congratulated for his magnificant effort and a job well done. P100 is the minimum prominence in the rules, so any summit below P100 can’t be included in the scheme. I hope that Luc will carry on his good work and revisit his extensive list to see how many prospective new summits meet this criteria.
73
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to G0AZS:
Well not going to say too much as don’t want to get kicked off here,
All i can say is who wants humps and who doesn’t,
As from a previous thread,
Reflector :: Humps - yes or no, Post by G4OWG o n 21st May 2008 at 17:33 ;
I think we only had a small hand full of activators responding to this thread, but had two chasers doing all the shouting,
Well it looks like the same is happening here again,
Leave the rules at they are, most are happy this way,
Unless they say on here.
Steve m0sgb
Mike,
I think there is a subtle difference. Permission has been successfully sought and obtained for the summits you mention. They are on country estates, and while harder to access, and indeed in some case difficult to secure permission, clearly not impossble - G4RQJ, GW4BVE et al.
P100 for England brings in a significant number of more ‘no-go’ areas, including places where permission will never be granted, a couple of them in the Cheltenham area spring to mind as examples.
Brian,
Your circuts do look appealing, but there’s nothing stopping people from doing them. I have done many a longer-than-necessary walk on SOTA days in order to take in other features. Mind you, 56km to activate The Cloud (July 2007) was probably a little excessive!
Marc,
Yes indeed, we should try to stay “on-task” here. The issue is the potential development of the ON association, and the question of whether we can access definitive information as to the prominences of possible new summits.
June 2009 is when James M0ZZO says he may look again into the England situation anyway.
Tom M1EYP
In reply to G8ADD:
…it is difficult to complete Wales at P150 for that very reason.
Not wanting to be contraversial Brian, it is currently impossible to complete P150 in Wales. Those of us that are working through the Welsh summits have to face that unless there is a change of stance by a certain landowner, then we will always be one summit short.
The Myarth and Swinside show what can be done given the correct approach. I do not see land ownership as a relevant issue on whether we stick with P150 in England or adopt P100, after all, the P100 summits on private land might all be in the ownership of very approachable landowners. Has anyone “tested the water” down Cheltenham way?
I fully understand Tom’s comment about his MG achievement. It could be argued that adopting P100 in England would be a lowering of the standard. However, if you have high ideals, then no-one is forcing you to activate the P100 summits.
We are told time and time again SOTA is personal and indeed it truly is. I have a personal goal to achieve MG activating uniques. That is my choice, it is personal and I acknowledge that there are easier ways of achieving MG status. I do not see how we can, or indeed that we should, compare one MG achievement with another. If we start doing that, then we are on the road to ruin.
73, Gerald
In reply to M0SGB:
Steve
Once again you have quoted that it is only the chasers asking for rule changes in this thread, tell me who you refer to because I can’t find a single chaser making such requests in this thread.
Tom
I do see your point and understand your personal reasons given, but I don’t think your example is logical. What would be the answer if some of the UK’s Marylyns were made totally inaccesible due to the fact that the land they are on became privately owned with no chance of ever regaining access, would they be removed from the programe?
To simply dismiss the idea of P100 on the basis that some of the summits may be inaccesible doesn’t make sense to me. It’s a subject that means different things to different people with differing opinions.
Mike GW0DSP
In reply to GW0DSP:
Virtually anywhere you look at in the UK is owned: private, government, royal. No doubt it is the same everywhere. Thus some Marilyns could indeed become no-go areas at the whim of the owner. Climbers face the same problem, many crags that have been developed for climbing, and even have famous routes on them, are on private land and have become inaccessible at the whim of the owner - well, whim is unfair, it is often due to insurance worries, litter, bad behaviour etc, but the result is that the enthusiasts can’t climb there. The details of the crags, location, access points, descent routes and the climbs remain published in the guides in the hope that the world will turn and access will one day become available. Similarly, I’m sure that any closed off SOTA summits will remain listed in the hope that at some future point access will become available again.
Look, guys, we have all had our say on P100/P150 and its getting repetitious, I suggest we shelve it until it is time for James to re-examine the issue, then everyone with an opinion should make it known so that any vote should be definitive.
73
Brian G8ADD
In reply to G8ADD:
In reply to GW0DSP:
descent routes and the
climbs remain published in the guides in the hope that the world will
turn and access will one day become available. Similarly, I’m sure
that any closed off SOTA summits will remain listed in the hope that
at some future point access will become available again.
The same arguement could be applied to P100 summits also
Look, guys, we have all had our say on P100/P150 and its getting
repetitious, I suggest we shelve it until it is time for James to
re-examine the issue, then everyone with an opinion should make it
known so that any vote should be definitive.73
Brian G8ADD
I have to agree with you Brian. June next year is the time to revisit this issue and not before.
73
Mike GW0DSP