A Question of TIme

I dont begrudge anyone any points. They are what they are at that point in time. In fact if the activation took place on 31st Dec and made 4 qso’s on either side of the UTC rollover then the activator would score 26 points for a single activation. The question is just a metal excercise in the rules and database workings.

I pondered which category to place it in when I was typing it.

I agree. UTC should be used. In your example of DL to VK summit to summit I guess they would happen on different local days. The scoring would be correct although an * would not be given against the chaser/activator entry.

Perhaps that is a solution to the “has it become too easy” thread? :wink:

As I mentioned before, its just a mental excercise, rather than disputing any rules or scores.

Thanks fors the opionion and suggestions so far

Ian
G7ADF

Brian

On the matter of the one activation or two activations, I now understand the unwritten “option”. The option is to lie or to tell the truth. If the rule was that you can combine all QSO’s within a 24 hour period into ONE cumulative Activation, I would be fine with that. I am not fine with lying about an Activation. And it would be obvious what you did by logging those contacts nearly 24 hours apart. For every one of my Activations, I have had to acknowledge that I have entered truthful data. Truth is an option? Lying should not be a loophole.

And are we actually reading the original question the same way? I have to believe one of us is confused. The way I read it, there were 3 contacts before the rollover. There were 3 more contacts after the rollover. Spread out over 5 Chasers.

At exactly what point did the Seasonal Bonus points kick in if they were truthfully entered that way? That is what you meant by the two activation option, correct? The truth.

If I go to a tall Summit in June and make 3 contacts - then come back in December and make 3 more contacts (all this spread out over 5 chasers), I have not accumulated any Activation Points. But will the database give me the Seasonal Bonus.?

Hi Glenn,

I don’t think it is that simple.

It is one activation. The activator climbed and descended the summit once. But, if you enter the dates and times accurately, then you will be claiming it as two activations.

If you log the starting date, and then the end time, it looks as though you activated on two separate occasions on the same day, but it only counts as one activation.

There is no entirely truthful solution to this conundrum. There is some truth in both of the above possibilities. To call either activator a liar would be very harsh, though, in my view.

Maybe the rules could state something like “for a single visit to a summit, the activation date will be defined as the date on which the first contact is made”

That wouldn’t prevent someone from walking out of the AZ and then back into it a few minutes later, but it would be a clear rule perhaps?

73
Adrian
G4AZS

Yes. Of course. If you only make one contact then you have activated but not qualified the summit. The bonus goes with the activation, not the qualification.

This is where it gets fuzzy. Were there two activations or just one? Did the activator climb the mountain twice? IN reality it was just one activation, and it is an artifact of the way the database works that it gets recorded as two. It is even worse in Australia where the SOTA day changes in the middle of the day so that many if not most activations get a double record. Perhaps it is easier for me because years ago I used to do a lot of variable star observing and we recorded our dates and times in GMAT (Greenwich Mean Astronomical Time) to make sure that the date did not change in the middle of a run of observations. Be that as it may, having the date change in the middle of a run of contacts is far from a good thing for activators well away from the Greenwich Meridian, leading to cases like the initial example where although there were six valid contacts on a single activation, they become two three contact activations scoring no points because of an artifact of the database. This is an unfair burden on activators well away from the Greenwich Meridian and it is only right that there should be a route to ameliorate this burden. That is my opinion, anyway. It isn’t a matter of lies and truths, but how the MT can deal with problems that were not anticipated when SOTA was first set up. How would you deal with it?

How would I deal with it? With a clearly WRITTEN rule.

Either the Database should accommodate activation entries with all contacts entered at the correct time (giving the points), or the database time shift workaround would be explicitly given the full support of the MT. In the rules, in writing. That is not a hard concept.

Brian
As far as your understanding of the Bonus rule. Now that we have clarified that you understand the question, I ask you to review my Activator log.

I visited W3/PD-002 (Clark Knob) on 12/Jan/2016 - I had Three contacts and was awarded exactly ZERO total points. I returned on 9/Mar/2016 and got the required contacts, at which time I was awarded 6 activator points and 3 bonus points.

I visited W3/PW-013 (Riansares Mtn) on 21/Jan/2017 - I had One contact and was awarded exactly ZERO total points. I returned on 18/Feb/2017 and got the required contacts, at which time I was awarded 6 activator points and 3 bonus points.

Have I made my case about how the database works?

I will write about all this later, in detail.

Right now though, the priority is the post-activation pint with Jimmy M0HGY. Which is about to move into the plural.

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Good post activation strategy Tom. Did you manage to work Andy, who was also out on a hill today.

Not to me, you haven’t, Glenn! When it comes to the inner workings of the database I am just another user. Andy is the guy to bend the ear of! I gave the facts as I understood them, but perhaps the maestro has waved his big stick!

OK, here goes. First of all, remember that the act of activating the same summit for no extra points again within a calendar year is still relatively rare among the global SOTA community; we are not dealing with a common behaviour here.

There has to be a point in time that the Database uses as a “cut off” - to separate consecutive activations of the same summit. It uses midnight UTC. Without this, then all activatoins of the same summit within a calendar year would run into one single activation - clearly not the case.

That then calls into question someone activating across the midnight UTC point-in-time. Do they enter as two distinct activations, or one? Well, the choice is theirs. Why?

Well, in several associations, for instance VK and W6, midnight UTC is in normal daylight hours, and an activation might quite normally span across midnight UTC. So that can be entered as a single activation.

But what about the opposite case? For example, I have, on more than one occasion, ascended one of my local hills after 2300z and operated through to 0100z. I have always entered the pre-midnight and post-midnight QSOs as two distinct activations. Why? Because I can. The Database has to have that cut-off point and I therefore use that to record an extra activation. These are repeat activations anyway, so therefore no points at all, let alone additional points are collected.

Yet why should I be able to do this? Well, who’s to say I didn’t get up after my 2350z QSO, walk down to my car 8 minutes away and 80m vertically below the summit, then reascend to resume ops at 0015z? Not that I would need to do that. I would only need to go as far as just out of the 25m activation zone wouldn’t I? Maybe not even that. Consider “drive to” summits like Bishop Wilton Wold G/TW-004 where most activators park in the layby beside the summit and walk 20m or so to their chosen activation point. What would they do - walk to the car and back? Halfway to the car and back? One metre and back?

It’s impossible to define; mathematically you start dicing with fractals. You might say you should packaway all your equipment, then set it all up again. Fine. Mine is a VHF/UHF handheld.

So the Database needs to be able to separate daily activations (for more reasons than I’ve outlined above), but the activator needs a method to get the Database to interpret cross-midnight UTC activations as a single activation - if desired. Or not - if desired. This is all in place.

Regarding the seasonal bonus, I believe Brian is mistaken. I think the seasonal bonus is awarded with a qualification (4 QSOs) of a summit, rather than an activation (1 QSO). Activators submitting a seasonal bonus activation with <4 QSOs before midnight UTC, and <4 QSOs after, but with a sum of >= 4 QSOs, should ensure they do so in a way that the Database reads it as a single activation. Then they get all the points due.

Remember, on manual log entry, you are only asked for the date of the activation once. This is the date of the first QSO. On CSV import entry, all the dates for all the QSOs need to be set as the same as that of the first QSO for this to work. It is fine to use the actual UTC dates of each QSO - but this will cause the Database to split it into two distinct activations. Which, as explained, is not actually a problem, or a “lie” (harsh) because of the multitude of ease/difficulty with which you could leave, and then return to a summit.

The word “lying”, BTW, is way out of line - and in fact plain wrong. The date of an activation is the date of the first QSO, and all subsequent QSOs must be set to this date - for import entry.

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In view of Glenn’s experience I think you are right, Tom. Oddly enough the GR do not make this clear, and I think have never done so. Currently they read:

“3.11.1 Seasonal Bonus Option
A seasonal Bonus may be made available to all Activators undertaking Expeditions within an Association, at the discretion of the Association Manager in consultation with the Management Team…”

In this wording it is the Expedition that attracts the bonus. It does not make clear whether the Expedition should be an activation or a qualified activation. This must be clarified and the wording amended in the next issue of the GR.

Brian

As you can see, the month of January has been tough on me. There are even worse examples of zero January contacts that you will never know about. In any case, I had very strong evidence that there was a misconception being relayed about Bonus Points. My experience only confirmed for me what I suspected it would be, but as you have pointed out, it is not explicitly defined. I am always a fan of clearly specified rules. I look forward to the new verbiage to come that will remove any doubt. Thank You.

Tom
I made my point badly. I realize I have the luxury of never having to stretch an activation past the UTC rollover (unless I choose to). It seems that those caught up in the opposite circumstance realize they already have the blessing of the MT to time shift to enjoy the same summit experience as me, which they deserve. But I personally would have written it into the rules. That is just me.Then everyone would understand better, and I would not have describe the act of time shifting in that unflattering light. But I did say right from the very beginning, if it was covered in the rules, I am fine with it. The written rules, Not the unwritten rules.

You go to great lengths to justify the behavior like I don’t understand it. I quickly understood it just fine. The time shift is necessary for some to make their experience as normal as mine, but nobody thought it was important to make that clear in the rules. Then the original explanation about “options” was not elegantly crafted either. I think we all understand each other now. Those who are affected, know how to handle the situation. Those who are not affected by it don’t need to know about it. But there ain’t no bad guy here.

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Err, being in ZL I already have at least 1 “expedition” which had QSOs both sides of UTC midnight. I uploaded my log using accurate UTC date and time, and therefore was logged as 2 “activations”. I had no idea that there was another way to do it, and Tom’s statement quoted above has confused me further.

Did I do it correctly, or not?

Yes, you did it correctly. It is just that you have the option of entering it so that it shows as a single activation should you prefer, for instance if both the pre-midnight and post-midnight components had 3 QSOs or less and you would miss out on the points.

There are many areas in the SOTA rules which are left vague for good reason and we wont be tightening them up. There well be areas that are vague and should be tightened up. It all depends on what is being tightened.

Now a common misconception is the database is a valid replacement for your own log book. It isn’t because it doesn’t do ADIF for a start. Seriously, the database maintains enough information for the MT to validate any award claims. That’s its purpose.

The next issue is we don’t define how long an activation is. All we know is an activation starts at the time/date of the 1st QSO. It ends when you tell the database you stopped. i.e. the last QSO in the log. When you enter an activation manually you enter the date the activation started. The software stops appending the QSOs to that activation log when you click finished. It doesn’t care if you spent 1 day or 1000 days.

When you enter a log using the CSV upload (no ADIF here, but we do predate ADIF’s instigation by several years) you can do things the manual uploaders cannot do. You can lump several activations of different summits together. Or you can upload repeat activations of the same summit intermixed with other activations. All you need to do is read the rules for uploading. The link to those rules is on the upload page. Every time you upload using CSV you get a chance to read the rules.

Here it is for those who missed it: SOTA Database It explains how to setup your file for repeated activations or individual activations.

So the answer to the original question is it depends how you enter the data. Using our services probably could be described better for newcomers. Any volunteers to write some docs?

Of my 100+ activations primarily in W6 and the west, no more than 3-4 have been a “back to back same peak activation over the date change”. I’m a morning activator and by late afternoon typically faced with a hike and long drive ahead of me, I want off the peaks and to be homeward bound.

Clearly I don’t get any extra points (unless it’s Dec 31st!) for hanging around and have stayed for the chasers who either legitimately want “double” points or those who are late to the party and missed the pre 23:59 activation. Sometimes repeat chasers have come up on different bands or band conditions have changed so my sense is the chasers are earning their points.

I log the back to back as two activations which I suppose does dilute some of my averages.

In my view there is a good argument for
A. recording in the database exactly what the activator uploaded.
B. Then, after ingesting the data, the software managing the database (I still don’t like calling a website a database) would:

  • assign activation IDs to group the contacts that the rules say should be grouped together (with stated criteria)
  • allocate the points if any and
  • determine any bonus points if any.

The advantage of this is that contacts can be compared more readily between activators and chasers - yes, no requirement for that, but keeping data pure is a good goal in itself. Also, downloaded data can be used to re-load without manual changes to lots of dates.

The first dot point is very difficult to define other than saying all contacts in a sequence for the same activated summit reference are a single activation (the current situation). An alternative would be to define a time gap after which the remaining contacts would be deemed a new activation. In that case the 3 contacts before 2359 still get nil points, but 4 or more after 0100/0200(whatever) constitute a new activation and are eligible to be assessed for points and bonuses. Other than 31 Ded/ 1 Jan, they would not get more points, but at bonus rolllover, the second “activation” would qualify for bonus points. Problem, if the second activation won’t be recognised with the entire log submitted, two partial logs may be submitted to force the system to yield the points. Contrary to intentions, so not a good idea.

The more consistent approach is I think to apply the rules for activations as they are today, but let people know they have to have enough contacts on the new (bonus qualifying) day, for it to be considered for the bonus points. That avoids all confusion about how bonus points are earned - ie. sufficient contacts need to be on the actual utc date that meets the bonus conditions of the ARM.

If I operate at Mt Ginini for an entire VHF field day weekend with my sota station electrically isolated from my vhf gear (which is typically generator powered), I could make contacts on Friday evening, Saturday morning and all day, Sunday morning and up to lunch time. UTC timings would be 0700, 2300, 0400 next day, 0900, 2300, 0400 on third day. If submitted as a single log, the assigned date will be Friday for the whole weekend. This strikes me as an unintended consequence too. i receive queries from operators all over as to why I logged them with the wrong date, when I actually didn’t.

I dare say the original rules didn’t attempt to cater for these problems when the only associations were in the UK or nearby. But they emerge once wide variations of time zones create new glitches. Andrew ZL3CC gave more good examples.

In such cases my analytical cell suggests returning to basics and examining what is intended, what is fair, and what is practical.

Hi Andy,

We have discussed this before, so let me say up front I have followed your firm instructions as to what I should/must do since then.

If I have an activation that crosses UTC 0000 the database ignores the change of date and puts my post UTC rollover contacts back 24 hours when I wasn’t on the mountain. Chasers can’t get their star because the days don’t match. This still causes some unhappiness and emails about errors in logs.

IMO its not a matter of tightening something that is loose. There is no adjuster in this case.
Yes I understand that “someone” has to do a lot of work on the Data Base to “fit anadjuster” and I’m certainly not competent o do so, so haven’t pursued this topic for a while, but as someone else has raised it…

Separate activations on the same UTC day can be handled by uploading a separate file. I’m not sure why you would do that, unless you were trying for 44 contacts for a WWFF park accreditation as well as a SOTA activation and in mid flight had to stop, leave and go get a pizza.

73
Ron
VK3AFW

The confirmation stars get switched off tonight and the problem is solved.

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I once continuously activated a summit over 3 days, in that the station was set up and every few hours or so I’d give a call. I have no idea how the database managed all of that that but my log is the definitive record of the activation in my mind.

I don’t think anyone was impacted either way by how the database recorded it. I got an activation and qualified the summit and the chasers chased me.
Compton

They’re off now.

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